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Any videos on the web detailing how older disc wheel were manufacture?
Hello to All,
I am interested in know how older disc wheels were manufactured....Ambrosio and others, were they honeycomb or? I have seen a few that look like a cellular inner structure but can't find any info or videos. Does anyone have additional information? Best, Ben https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d933dbc4c4.png Similar to these.... :D Lattz |
I have an old Zipp "Predator" rear disc wheel. I think it was like their second gen wheel but still had most of the original first model specs. Just maybe mostly graphics and finish change from the first gen, it looks like.
The construction seem to consist of a honeycomb inner fill material. What its made of, I cannot tell. Could be Kevlar or could be just cardboard. (Update: Turns out I remembered wrong about the wheel substrate material. It's actually dense, rigid foam. See my third post on this thread below, post #10 .) The disc wheel face costruction consist of what looks like, thin resin impregnated, Kevlar woven skin on the two faces of the wheel. I'm not sure about the rim. It could be a composite construction of the rim brake surfaces of resin impregnated carbon/Kevlar (yellow and very dark grey strands) woven mat, with maybe a light gauge walled aluminum rim core. The rim might actually be full molded Carbon/Kevlar, as the woven carbon/Kevlar pattern goes right over, across the rim from wall to wall, visible when a tire is not installed. I was just also assuming that there's an aluminum core to reinforce the rim, although, I do not see any aluminum anywhere on it. Not a light wheel, but I guess that's because of the more basic production methods they had back then, compared to modern disc wheels, plus they were treading new waters in disc wheel technology, so engineering safety factors were bigger. What I find difficult with my Zipp wheel is finding the right tubular tire for it with a short enough valve stem, so I can fit a pump head, between its tip and the edge of the oval hole that the valve stem sits in. Modern tubs usually have valves stems that are just too long. |
Chombi1,
Thanks for the information, would you pleased take some pictures of the details you mentioned and post them on this thread! :D Best, Ben Chombi1 |
I'll be glad to take a few pics this weekend and post them on this thread.
|
Originally Posted by Chombi1
(Post 21755846)
I'll be glad to take a few pics this weekend and post them on this thread.
Many thanks, good for the history of the disc. Best, Ben |
Many of the early disk wheels were built with honeycomb cores covered with fiberglass, carbon fiber, or aluminum sheet bonded on each side. These techniques are pretty common in the boat and light aircraft industry- a quick Google on "building with honeycomb core" turned up several videos and how-to sites.
A few of my friends in the high-speed HPV community built their own wheels from surplus Boeing honeycomb panels bonded to homemade hubs and rims. That's the only way you're going to get an extra-narrow 24" wheel compatible with a front-wheel-drive recumbent: https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6f6ad45784.jpg |
Jeff Wills
Jeff, Thanks for the information, I didn't know what to search for Do you have any idea how they bonded the panel to the rim and axle? Best, Ben :thumb: Spell check.....Dragon dictate gets it wrong sometimes! |
Originally Posted by xiaoman1
(Post 21757630)
Jeff Wills
Jeff, Thanks for the information, I didn't know what to search for Do you have any idea how they bonded the panel to the rim and axel? Best, Ben :thumb: |
Originally Posted by Jeff Wills
(Post 21757702)
I'm pretty sure they used epoxy between the "hub" and the round panel. To join the rim to the panel I think it was a combination of screws and an epoxy/filler slurry. How they kept the rim precisely centered on the hub... I don't know. The high-speed HPV gang are experts at improvisational fabrication.
Maybe that's why I have read that a few of the "originals" had a slight hop in them. Thanks again for the information, I am that someone will have additional technical information for me. Best, Ben |
Here's pics I took today of my Zipp Predator disc wheel:
The face has a mat finish with the very fine Kevlar (or fiberglass) weave showing when you look at the surface at an angle https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...52549f7eef.jpg This is the threaded side of the hub for a freewheel for road riding. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...39473edf8a.jpg. This side is threaded for fixed or single speed. There are no screws at the hub flange to the disc face like, I think, some other disc wheels have. I suspect the hub is just bonded on to the disc with glue. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...71438132fc.jpg I think I have to correct myself about what material is used between the disc faces. From what I see at the valve stem side hole. It looks to be very dense rigid foam, similar in consistency as isocyanurate foam, used in the building industry. So the structure is like a surfboard with two composite skins on each side of the wheel acting as bonded on structural membranes on the rigid foam core. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f824feb3b2.jpg From what's visible at the rim top, it looks to be a composite rim with the woven carbon/Kevlar showing through the clear resin. There still could be an aluminum core hoop under the composite material to reinforce the rim....Can't see it, so not sure. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...49989f1b2f.jpg Here's a view from the top of the wheel, showing the different side offsets at the hub to accommodate the different types of cogsets. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5f77cd21a2.jpg |
Chombi1,
Wow, and many thanks for the very detailed information on the wheel, they are extremely informative. I have emailed the company for additional information because It would be great to have some drawing details that are a bit more granular. Even though disc technology has moved on quite a bit from sandwich core to carbon, I don't expect much from them. Thanks for following up....how's the "RED" Rocket performing these days? Best, Ben |
Originally Posted by Jeff Wills
(Post 21755944)
Many of the early disk wheels were built with honeycomb cores covered with fiberglass, carbon fiber, or aluminum sheet bonded on each side. These techniques are pretty common in the boat and light aircraft industry- a quick Google on "building with honeycomb core" turned up several videos and how-to sites.
A few of my friends in the high-speed HPV community built their own wheels from surplus Boeing honeycomb panels bonded to homemade hubs and rims. That's the only way you're going to get an extra-narrow 24" wheel compatible with a front-wheel-drive recumbent: https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6f6ad45784.jpg I remember when the honeycomb process met the unlimited hydroplane boats. U-1 and U-2 (Miss Budweiser) were the fastest boats on the water. Newest hulls and lightest that went over the 200 mph mark for the first time in the sport. Smiles, MH |
Originally Posted by Chombi1
(Post 21758891)
Here's pics I took today of my Zipp Predator disc wheel:
From what's visible at the rim top, it looks to be a composite rim with the woven carbon/Kevlar showing through the clear resin. There still could be an aluminum core hoop under the composite material to reinforce the rim....Can't see it, so not sure. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...49989f1b2f.jpg |
Originally Posted by xiaoman1
(Post 21753981)
Hello to All,
I am interested in know how older disc wheels were manufactured....Ambrosio and others, were they honeycomb or? I have seen a few that look like a cellular inner structure but can't find any info or videos. Does anyone have additional information? Best, Ben https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d933dbc4c4.png Similar to these.... :D Lattz Hi Ben, I just accidentally found your thread since @- tag paging does not work due to issues with the forum engine itself. I'm no expert on the matter but can share you as well a few interesting pics I planned to post in the TT-forum but as I have a topic for it, I want to collect more. So a fellow Hungarian, actually a track racer, decided he needs an own copy of the Moser "Big wheel", so he built one himself. Here are shots how he approached the wheel matter, being a pro rider he must have seen plenty of such wheels himself, so it might be good as a start. As Chombi1 pointed out, normally there's stiff foam between the discs, I think polyurethane is the go in many cases, since it is light easy to form and cut, and kind of stiff once dried. They do not bring us closer to how the original Logos, Roulette or Ener N.M. were built, but good for a start. I guess track bikes have a big advantage when it comes to home built discs, that you don't have to deal with brake surface... https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...18be5b8494.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...93d7e7568f.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...cdbb41e5be.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bba93c3338.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...54e143053d.jpg |
Heres a nice article with cool photos on a guy who makes really successful discs.
PEZ cycling news - Walker Bros might be interesting as well: http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-5828377.html |
Originally Posted by Lattz
(Post 21770316)
Heres a nice article with cool photos on a guy who makes really successful discs.
PEZ cycling news - Walker Bros might be interesting as well: The secret of Lightweight wheels | Roues Artisanales Many thanks for these.....I am still searching but obviously, you have a better knowledge of words to use with your search engine. Best, Ben |
Originally Posted by xiaoman1
(Post 21770509)
Lattz,
Many thanks for these.....I am still searching but obviously, you have a better knowledge of words to use with your search engine. Best, Ben |
Originally Posted by Lattz
(Post 21770293)
xiaoman1
Hi Ben, I just accidentally found your thread since @- tag paging does not work due to issues with the forum engine itself. I'm no expert on the matter but can share you as well a few interesting pics I planned to post in the TT-forum but as I have a topic for it, I want to collect more. So a fellow Hungarian, actually a track racer, decided he needs an own copy of the Moser "Big wheel", so he built one himself. Here are shots how he approached the wheel matter, being a pro rider he must have seen plenty of such wheels himself, so it might be good as a start. As Chombi1 pointed out, normally there's stiff foam between the discs, I think polyurethane is the go in many cases, since it is light easy to form and cut, and kind of stiff once dried. They do not bring us closer to how the original Logos, Roulette or Ener N.M. were built, but good for a start. I guess track bikes have a big advantage when it comes to home built discs, that you don't have to deal with brake surface... https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...54e143053d.jpg Either that is a 24 on the front or the rear is "larger" than 700.:innocent: In any event, it turned out well...pun intended Best, Ben |
Curious to know, how one would find a tire for such a giant wheel?? Might it be a solid rubber tire?? |
Originally Posted by Chombi1
(Post 21771201)
WOW!! Now that's a BIG wheel!!
Curious to know, how one would find a tire for such a giant wheel?? Might it be a solid rubber tire?? My thoughts exactly:D Best, Ben |
I guess he might have got the whole idea to build the bike by finding that tire.
In the orig forum i found the pics most guys asked the same. Given that Moser had only 2 Big Wheels I guess Vittoria didnt produce an awful lot from those tubes unless theres something else with 1 meter+ wheel diameter. |
Originally Posted by Lattz
(Post 21771319)
I guess he might have got the whole idea to build the bike by finding that tire.
In the orig forum i found the pics most guys asked the same. Given that Moser had only 2 Big Wheels I guess Vittoria didnt produce an awful lot from those tubes unless theres something else with 1 meter+ wheel diameter. To the wheel maybe a penny-farthing tire would do the trick.:rolleyes: Best, Ben |
Hi Ben, I don't know, if it brings you any closer in knowledge, but here are a few details shots of a MIG wheel (by the fighter jet company Mikoyan).
It looks like the "internal spokes" we've talked earlier about regarding the Fluidisks, are really only the overlaps of the pieces, from the side it looks like there is some rim, but it is also possible that it is only two rings cut from carbon/kevlar. and the rest is foam. The last picture is a different wheel, maybe Fluidisk, thee you can see, that the core is a regular(?) spoked rim... https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...188a9bb275.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d76ecb2d6e.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fc539419c3.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...71e8753235.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2047bbe065.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f2ad529c1b.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d983083806.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4fa32d849f.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3a59747a6c.jpg |
Originally Posted by xiaoman1
(Post 21771338)
I would certainly like to see more of the construction technique. it would be interesting to see the inside of the disc and how it was filled and bonded to the outer rime(if it was), and why the radial sanding on the skin.
To the wheel maybe a penny-farthing tire would do the trick.:rolleyes: Best, Ben https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0646d68d8d.jpg |
And here is some bonus content, a few years ago Gipiemme sold these WDY1 and 2, pure wood disc and 4spoke..... they were not even expensive if I remember properly, something like EUR300 or so when I saw the last time..
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4ff2aace0f.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b991fc11a9.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...38fc13c845.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5d58cc28f2.jpg |
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