What Work Is Being Done For Serious Non Pneumatic Tires?
 

Folks:

I know all about the junk air-less tires that have come and gone over the years.

I also know about the goo tube that are 'supposed' to self heal when punctured.

What I am curious about is that given the amount of serious new technology that is coming out of the various labs, is there any effort for a serious and accurate non pneumatic tire that has the same look, feel, and weight of a pneumatic tire? I would like to think that with the nanotechnologies and the new materials that are coming out of the research labs; that there has to be something out there that can be used instead of air in tires that can have the same characteristics as air tires but would never go flat.

As we all know in this community, flat tires are the biggest bane for us. If there is something that can be done to eliminate pneumatic tires, our lives would be greater.

I know that many of us are working in or near these labs with the new nano technologies and should be aware of something that can be used instead of air in our tires.

Anyone know of anything besides the very heavy and ineffective air-less junk that we have now?

Truly and humbly yours,

Mark Allyn
Bellingham, Washington

The nearest i've found is half'n'half. Tannus Armour.

There is an inner tube, there is a conventional tyre. There is also a foam tyre you place in the normal tyre with a cavity for the tube... Not only does this mean the tube is far away from the road surface (about an inch, in the case of my bike) but it's pedalled as 'run-flat' technology by Tannus, as they claimed the bike can be ran in limited form with the tube deflated.

I intend to find out. It's not easy to remove the wheels on my bike, so i'm waiting until i fit new tyres. They're not cheap, certainly not priced in line with manufacturing costs given they cost more than the tyres... but a flat tyre can cost me considerably, so i can justify it.

I'll be interested to know of any experiences with Tannus Armour, and any other such product that utilises a conventional tyre.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...69a5855a16.jpg

I realize that these aren't bicycle tires, but your question reminded me of an article I read a few months ago about airless car tires.

Interesting read...

https://newatlas.com/michelin-gm-uptis-airless-tire/60004/https://newatlas.com/michelin-gm-uptis-airless-tire/60004/

Maybe Michelin is working on something for bikes as well.

Doubtful. Eliminating wheels on a bicycle is a lot more radical structural change than on a car.

I guess I disagree. With tubeless tires I’ve had one flat in the last 5,000 miles or so. That seems pretty reasonable. Chain lubrication takes far more of my time.

Air is light. It’s going to be hard to find a material to replace air that doesn’t weigh considerably more. If I want a smoother ride, I have the option of running less air. If I’m heavier than the next rider I need to run more air. These three important factors are going to be an insurmountable obstacle for a performance-oriented solid material tire.

Pneumatics are an amazingly adaptive technology, so I doubt they'll ever be eliminated in our lifetimes. Even now, many of the tires are virtually puncture proof, but at some cost to weight and performance.

That said, it's pretty obvious that materials science will continue to find alternatives to filling a tube with air, producing non-pneumatic tires that will have one major advantage --ease of maintenance but still not being as adaptable as pneumatic.

The ability to vary the pressure in the same tire is a quality it's hard to imagine any solid, liquid or gel duplicating. So, basically, I think we'll see alternatives being marketed, probably quite a bit more expensive than pneumatics, with some performance trade offs that some will find acceptable.

The vehicles equipped with the airless tires still have wheels...

Michelin Uptis airless tires are slated for release in 2024. Which is the sort of deadline that says it may or may not ever happen. The work involved in applying that tech to bicycles would be substantial. For trivial payback.

The pneumatic tire is the greatest technological advancement in cycling history. It utilizes fluid dynamics as an incredibly efficient and adjustable suspension system that is literally as light as air. It's hard to imagine a more elegant solution for a simple, lightweight machine like a bicycle.

One note about bicycle tires is that over the last 20 years or so, there has been increasing emphasis on better tread protection. I can remember a trip into REI, I think in the late 90's, just asking for any tire with Kevlar belting. They were happy to sell several tires with Kevlar Beads, but nothing with Kevlar belts.

The tire companies didn't go to Kevlar belts, but all the major companies have some kind of protection, from the Marathon Plus tires with some kind of debris absorption layer like the liner below, to far more lightweight road tires.

Wow, I hadn't heard of that liner.

I have tried the Tannus 700x23 tires. An interesting solution. Not perfect with traction and ride, but no flats.

My guess is that Tannus Armor is specific to MTB applications (the smallest size seems to be 700x35.

The airless tires may do reasonably well with the narrow tires, but would quickly become unwieldy on larger applications, as well as not giving the cushioning and rock crawling ability that would be the point of the larger tires.

One might note that the Tannus tires are going mainstream, and I believe Specialized was putting them pre-mounted on some of their bikes.

https://bikerumor.com/2017/01/02/rev...d-alibi-sport/

I don't think the bikeshare fleet bikes had gone to Tannus solid tires yet, but I could imagine they would very much consider those Tannus Armor liners.

We have a difference in semantics. From the article: "The end goal is to replace both tire and wheel with a full assembly unit for passenger vehicle use. " So the tire and wheel are the same object. One part has been eliminated. No matter how you phrase it, I think that's got to be much more difficult to achieve on a bike.

I’d like to see some R&D in tube or liner material technology. Something along the lines of superior stretch or compliance rather than thickness or density. Imagine a tube that is virtually impossible to puncture due to the material and/or construction. Or a similar material that could be manufactured into the interior of a tubeless type tire that would stretch or otherwise contour to invading objects.

I think the Kevlar and Vectran ideas have been carried out about as far as the tire companies want to go, and while these materials do bring a light weight benefit they’re not as effective as what I’d like. I’m not a material science guy, but I (perhaps mistakenly) think there must be room to investigate super compliant, stretchable materials suitable for tire or tube use.


-Kedosto

Have you looked at the Panaracer Flat Away tire liner?

https://www.drcycle.in/upload/produc...1865d4f30e.jpg

https://static.biketiresdirect.com/p...0/pcpfa3-1.jpg

Light as a feather, and tough.

I've got a set in my nephew's tires, but haven't used them myself, as my flats tend to be infrequent enough that it is good to be prepared, but I don't need much more than the quality new tires.

That looks pretty cool. My only gripe, being the tightwad that I am, is that they're self adhesive, meaning you throw them away when your tires wear out. I re-used a set of Mr. Tuffy through multiple tires.

Oh, another note. I had Michelin Protek Max tires on my commuter for a while. A bit heavy and slow, but not a single flat. Also really good traction.

Unfortunately the bike got stolen before I got the tires worn out, but I wonder if the Michelin protection strips are tougher than the Schwalbe layer.

Michelin also makes the Protek Max tubes. An interesting design. As I had already noted with tubes, I like large tubes better than small tubes due to holes not opening up as much, and getting slower leaks.

Michelin takes that one step further and makes bumpy tubes that are supposed to hold the holes closed. Plus a sealant, I think, and they are supposed to be self sealing.

https://www.geeky-gadgets.com/wp-con...Protek-Max.jpg
https://softsolder.files.wordpress.c...be-sealant.jpg

Also in testing by my nephew, I don't have any personal long-term results from the tubes.

Someone noted earlier that one can just pull them out and put in another tire. Use some rubber cement if one desires.

I'd say never. As the non-pneumatic tire technology improves, so does the pneumatic tire technology. I can't rule out a non-pneumatic technology leapfrog, but I can't imagine it happening.

I disagree with this. ^^ Pneumatic tires have advantages that air-free tires will never have, including weight and quality of ride. When you hit a bump with a pneumatic tire, the shock compresses all of the air in the tire, meaning it is spread widely. With a air-free tire, shock it localized in the material and in the nearby part of the rim. As a result, airfree tires will alway give a rougher ride and be harder on the wheels. It's not just a deficiency in the materials, it's the overall concept.

You mention materials technology. Well, I think that improvements are best applied to making pneumatic tires more reliable and easier to fix, not applying them to replacing them. Sometimes flat-proof tires are worth all of the disadvantages; but I don't believe they'll ever be a viable choice for the average cyclist.

[QUOTE=Kedosto;21160941 Something along the lines of superior stretch or compliance rather than thickness or density. ...... there must be room to investigate super compliant, stretchable materials suitable for tire or tube use.


-Kedosto[/QUOTE]

This is being done right now. Some of us are using very light tires, sizing them wider, using much lower pressure. Latex inner tubes are stretchy, even if they do have other problems. In some ways it amounts to beta testing with consumer products. Considering that light tires with compliant casings and light tubes ride just great, it's pure gravy that they seem to flat a lot less than hard and thin. Some people will always want a bigger hammer, some will always prefer armor to compliance. Compliance works too. At this moment there are no promises that compliance will reliably and uneventfully get a commuter to work on time. It can be observed that light tires inflated soft get surprisingly few flats.

700x35 is gravel bike size, full smoothie slicks are available in that size and they'll fit on just about anything but a strict road bike.

Any smaller and they'd be pointless, and you wouldn't get a tube for them. I like the idea of being able to run a 1.5in tube in my 2.35 tyres though, because i'd probably end up with a lighter wheel...

Good to hear of your experience with the full tyre, what puts me off the most the the idea of a non-rubber tread. My trailer runs barrow wheels and i tried solid PU foam first, but it runs far better on pneumatic ones. Weight is about the same. These are 8in x 4.8in though!

I think tubeless technology is running parallel to solid tire technology and may eclipse it, the way vhs beat out beta and lost to disc.

I do see an area where a semi solid tire could be useful. Long off road expeditions in terrain where punctures are frequent from thorns etc... I think with the Tannus Armour design you might be able to run them soft or pumped up hard if you wish. I would pay a slight weight penalty for knowing punctures were not an issue in that case.

I recently was running a mtb trail with my fat bike and picked up three separate holes from blackberry thorns. Not thrilled about adding three patches to the tube I fed some slime into the tube and got it to seal but a semi solid tire would be a benefit there perhaps.

I have resisted going tubeless so far but will probably do so next tire change but that technology comes with some negatives regarding burping etc... I don't like the idea of burping far off in the booneys and having the tire come off. Perhaps better rim/tire interface design will make tubeless even better and negate non pneumatic advances.

Not really...For me flats are very infrequent and only happen once a year or once every few years. Modern tire technology has greatly improved and there are tires which have very good flat protection. Some of my tires that I use don't even have any serious flat protection and I still don't get flats often...The biggest problem with non pneumatic tires is that they handle like crap

Aerogels are pretty interesting. I don’t know a lot about them yet, but perhaps someday they could act as a very lightweight foam insert that allows air to squish around, but provide some amount of run-flat structure if the tire punctures. :)

I'm with you on this. I've had much better results with tubes that nearly fill the tire before inflating. They're possibly heavier, something that wouldn't affect my riding very much.

Solid wheels are more conducive to tubeless pneumatic tires because they can be manufactured to very precise tolerances, ensuring consistent airtight bead fitment and negating the need for messy sealant. They are unfortunately a bit heavier than traditional spoked wheels.