Sizing Up a Raleigh International
 

Hello,

Thanks to so many here, I went looking and stumbled across this...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Raleigh-Int...53.m1438.l2649

It seems to tick all the boxes for my Rando dream, but here's the rub--I'm 6'3 and wear a 34-36" inseam...the seller says it's a 59.7cm frame. I've ridden everything from a 61cm Fuji to a 62cm Centurion to a 64cm Panasonic--I wonder if the Raleigh is big enough for me? Also, is it worth the scratch?

Thanks for your input,

John

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Raleigh-Int...53.m1438.l2649

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In terms of frame sizes these were offered in one inch increments on the half inch as measured center-to-top so the subject machine would be a nominal "23 1/2" ."

From your inseam measurement would think you would be better served with the next size up the range.


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That's "one size below biggest" on an International. You could ride it, especially if you like your bars quite a bit lower than the saddle. "Rando proper" would have the bars around the same height as the saddle.

Nowadays used bikes seem to be getting a premium. No way I'd pay $1,100 for that, however, but if you really, really want it...

The photos look closer to the 24.5" size. I'm exactly your size and have a 71 International in 24.5 and a 70 Pro in 25.5. Both work fine.
This one's overpriced. At that amount it should be pristine and/or original. Hold out for a better deal. If you're thinking rando build, you may be better finding a frame and building it the way you want it.

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This example even dearer... :eek:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174459237383


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There aren’t many mass produced bicycles from the bike boom years that I can imagine paying that much for. eBay vintage bicycle prices are insanely inflated.

I will say if you’re gonna pay probably double what it’s worth at least make sure it’s going to be the perfect fit. Also ensure that it’s the size the seller is saying. Have them send a pic with a tape measure applied properly.

As noted above, if you want an actual randonneur build, you’re going to want your bars and saddle more or less equal. If this is too small for that you’ll lose that in the bars.

Finding the perfect frame and building it up from there might be the way to go. Traditional vintage randonneur bicycles were built specifically as randonneurs. Buying a non-rando bike and trying to make it such will likely mean giving up one or two “correct” things, unless you’re proficient in frame work. Starting with just a frame is going to be your closest bet. And try searching internationally for actual randonneur frames.

Both of the linked bikes are beautiful. I have been looking at Internationals on ebay for a while and they are almost always listed with high prices. I never check the completed listings to see what they actually sell for, though since I am not very serious about spending the money.

I would wait for a better deal/ fit. I have had really good luck with Craigslist and that way you can actually look at it in the light and check for any flaws that may either reduce the asking price or just be deal breakers. As far as fit, I am only 6'1" (on a good day) but have a 35" inseam , so the perfect bike size for me is 63cm or 25". That said, have a couple of bikes that I love that are closer to 60cm and ride them often with no problem. The seat post at that size frame is up a bit , but not beyond limits and with a seat bag , doesn't look too stretched. I got this never ridden Raleigh Competition GS for about $300 . I know it is a tic or two below the Pro or International but still a fine bike for the money. I believe it is a tad lighter than the upper tier bikes and rides like a dream. I have ridden it for about 5 years now.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8ec5c31bf.jpeg

So that International has a few things going for it that make it a bit nicer than your garden variety international.

Newer brooks
Bar end shifters
Upgraded to record brakes and levers
cinelli bar and stem

Yes, expensive, and yes you can find them cheaper on craigslist, but it isnt so bad at the end of the day for an international with some choice upgrades. How many of you would sell yours for less than $1000 net?

Despite the International's nostalgia/collector appeal, I venture to say that for $1000, you can find a bike with a higher build quality than a Raleigh -- all the examples that I've seen personally were fairly disappointing on close inspection, compared to the vintage output of other "quality" manufacturers, even (and in some cases, especially) the Japanese marques you mention riding. Also, I don't see any clarification in this thread about whether the measurement herein (59.7 cm) or stated in the eBay auction (23") is center-to-center of top tube or center-to-top. As stated above, Raleighs sizes were in half-inches, and center-to-top. My guess is that with your height and inseam, bike fitters would probably suggest a larger frame than 23.5" (59.5 cm) or 24.5" (62 cm), if only because the top tube on this bike is only 22-1/2" (57 cm) -- unless you have a fairly high waist for your height, your optimum top tube (which, in Sheldon Brown's opinion, is the single most important measurement of a frame for rider fit) would be longer than that. French and Italian vintage frames often have a longer top tube in the larger sizes, particularly. But, if you find a 61 or 62 cm frame comfortable to ride, then that's what's important. Just try hard to remember what the 64 felt like, in comparison to those. In your shoes, I would be looking for a 63 cm frame. I'm shorter, but ride one, and it's fine, even really good (though it also has a 57 cm top tube, but I am high-waisted).

Yikes indeed! What I do like is that she's ready to go (though I was hoping for a triple). As much as I like the idea of a project, here's an appeal to something turn-key, especially when a lot of good decisions have already been made. What do you think she's "actually" worth?

It doesn't matter what one person or a group thinks it's worth. It might be worth it to you. Most of us here are bargain shoppers. I am pathologically frugal. It can take me years to build a bike because I wait until something is undervalued before I buy it. So there it is. It's a time/money trade off. If you want it now, pay more. If you want to save money, wait longer. I wouldn't call you stupid for buying it. But if you find it doesn't fit, you may or may not be able to sell it at the same price. Hey, you might even mark it up higher and get lucky.

I estimate I spent about $1,000 building up my International "randonneur build." I painted it myself by hand which was too involved and I will not do again.

Fwiw, that eBay auction is at $1,100 with zero bids and marked "reserve not met," so the seller seems to think it's worth even more than that initial price.

I don't think that Internationals are rare enough to have crossed into the four-figure price range. I purchased an entire bike, with all the original Campy components, for $400 off of Craigslist a couple years ago and then bought a second frame/fork off of the bay for $240. And I think I probably overpaid for the frame purchase but it had a perfect fork that I wanted for the first bike and it was the same color and size. I had enough Raleigh Super Course parts laying around un-used I was able to assemble an entire bike with the second frame without spending any serious cash so I guess I did okay in the end. Of course, having two nearly identical bikes is pretty dumb so I will probably give the second one to my brother who is currently navigating the hills of Sonoma County on a three-speed.

As others have mentioned, if you are after a randonneur build there isn't much point in buying a complete, original bike since you will be discarding many of the original racing-focused components. Lots of Internationals are parted-out for their Campagnolo items (the sum of the parts being worth more than the whole) so finding an orphaned frame to start your bike with may be more cost-effective and not difficult.

The International is a lovely ride and pretty to look at too so I encourage you to continue your quest!

"Ready to go" by most eBay sellers means pretty much absolutely squat, and even though the seller in this case seems to know a thing or two about bikes, should be viewed with suspicion anyway. So many of these bikes out of someone's garage need to be completely torn down, cleaned and relubricated, and have essential components (wheel bearing races/cones, bottom bracket, headset, brake pads, and on and on) that need to be replaced. I would never presume that any bike I buy did not require my personal attention to each of the bearing components, and removal of almost everything with reinstallation and proper adjustment. My view is that unless you're prepared to do that, or pay a competent someone to do that, you're better off with a newer bike that has more "disposable" cartridge bearings that are less expensive to replace when anything but bearing balls is required, and less susceptible to mis-adjustment. But that takes the "vintage" more or less out of the equation, if that's one of your prime motivations to buy.

Having said that, if you really want an International for the nostalgia/collector appeal, this is not a terrible buy (though at the upper end, and if reserve is higher, I would take a hike), with the large exception that bars, brake levers and calipers, wheel rims are not original. And I count 47 teeth on the large chainring. If you've ridden other (later-vintage) bikes with steeper head and seat tube angles, be aware that this looks a bit slacker, like 72-72 at most. That also tends to make the frame "feel" shorter, and have a longer wheelbase -- especially because the rear chainstays look fairly long, perhaps as much as 45 cm, which Raleigh did on earlier-year Internationals. That makes for a somewhat different ride than "sprightly", though nothing wrong with it, and a lot of people prefer that (including me, in general, though I also like "sprightly", so long as it's short of "twitchy").

Oh, and I missed "rando dream": be aware that if you're after wider tires (the seller's bike has pretty narrow ones), Raleigh Internationals varied considerably. gugie has one, I believe from about this year, that can take them, especially if going to 650B (584 BSD) wheels, but I have a '74 frame that has only 34 mm clearance between the chain stays for a 700C (622 BSD) tire (meaning about a 28mm tire max, or 30 mm if you like to live dangerously, and have very true tires), and 41 mm clearance for a 650B wheel/tire. Without dimpling the stays (Internationals and Competitions have "rapid taper" chain stays, fairly fat and round at the roof, and undimpled), that's fairly limiting, in the true "rando" sense. Front clearance between fork blades (and crown, if extending into the max. tire width radius zone) is less often a problem with vintage bikes than the chain stay clearance, but should also be paid attention to (a Peugeot PX-10 frame mentioned below, for instance, has 49 mm clearance at 650B radius of about 321mm, but only 41 mm at 700C radius of about 340 mm, due to fork crown tangs on insides of the blades).

Plus, if 650B is a desideratum, there is the brake issue to consider. My Raleigh frame requires a 57 mm vertical reach for a 700C front wheel, and 61 mm for the rear. Add 19 for going from 622 BSD to 584, and you're talking about 76 and 80. The only brakes that will provide that, that I'm aware of, are a Mafac Raid (vintage, $125 and up) or the Raid knockoff sold by Rene Herse Cycles (even more expensive) -- or you have to modify the frame to have braze-on mounts for cantilever or center-pull brakes. Since the bike for auction required a drop bolt for Campy sidepulls (up to 57 mm reach), I suspect its required reach is pretty similar to what I've recited. Forewarned is forearmed.

There are other vintage bikes that may fit the "rando dream" more easily than an International. Motobécane (early '70s) Le Champion and Grand Record for a few years longer (if you can stomach the French or Swiss threading for bottom bracket), Mondia Special or Super into the '80s (reliably Swiss threading), Peugeot PX-10 (again French, but said to have a fairly low bottom bracket for 650B conversion -- still, fairly perfect for brake reach, requiring only about 74 mm brake calipers, within the range for Weinmann 750 or a Tektro modern one), many vintage English frames of the '50s (though you have to be very careful, because the Britons fell headlong into the "narrow tire" mania as early adapters for any "racy" bike). But the Moto and Mondia models mentioned are fairly reliable.

I apologize if this is TMI, but these are considerations when purchasing a vintage frame as a "rando dream", and attempting to realize it in the real world.

@Charles Wahl makes good points. My 1974 International accepts 32mm tires with fenders so maybe it has more clearance than his does. It is a tight fit, and I have to make sure my rear wheel is true and inserted properly. @ascherer has a 1971 International, and it has more clearance for tires.

My '71 runs 700x35s with fenders and a bit of room at the chainstays. No problems at the fork crown.

Prices are up, no doubt about it. I remember some of us lamenting that the bottom had dropped out of the C&V market to the point that some were pondering whether to exit the market. That same bike would probably have been priced well under 1K in January/February.

Thank you Charles--for me, the is no such thing as TMI!

Both of my Internationals have 27" wheels. One has 27 x 1 1/4 and the other 27 x 1 1/8. With fenders fitted, I have to let the air out of the tires to get them out or in. The brakes are Weinmann 610 (the shorter reach) front and rear and the pads are mounted close to midpoint in the slot so I have the impression that the frame clearances may have been designed to accomodate 27" wheels, even though they left Worksop with sew-ups.

By comparison, a Super Course was certainly designed for the 27 x 1 1/4 wheels it came with originally- it uses a Weinmann 750 (longer reach) caliper in the rear and the wheels come off easily without deflation, even with fenders. The wheelbase of my Super Course MkII is an inch longer than the International and my '73 Super Course (Mk I, just to keep them straight) is another inch longer than that.

Charles pretty much hits all the issues and potential solutions. It can be a rabbit hole. The International I had was a '71, for a long time I thought it was a '73. Somewhere between the two years the chainstays shortened a bit, so my '71 actually fit 650b x 42's.

If you're looking to get into a decent rando type bike without modifying the frame, the early 70's Motobecane's are good starting material and can be found at lower cost than the equivalent Raleigh's. They're relatively plentiful, and relatively inexpensive modern solutions to the French-specific bits can be found through Velo Orange.

Nobody has mentioned the 'Best Offer' portion of the listing. Am I missing something here?

Note that Mondias are typically Swiss threaded, so bottom bracket replacement can be a parts sourcing issue, but IRD and Velo Orange used to sell Swiss cups for cartridge units; original loose ball cups in Swiss are getting much harder to find. I amended my essay above to note the threading.

John,
1) What exactly is your Rando Dream? There's the classic French style (650B wheels, fenders, etc.), but most people who do actual randonneuring ride racing bikes.
2) There's no need to pay a lot of money for a nice complete bike if you're going to replace many of the parts, and especially if you plan to make frame modifications. I bought a 1974 International frame here on BF for $150, it needed refinishing but I did that at my neighbor's autobody shop for the cost of the paint and a 6-pack. That would have been a perfect candidate for frame modifications.
3) If you're going to do fat tires and fenders, clearance is always an issue. My Raleigh has 700x38 tires, there is room for a front fender but not in the rear. I tried on a set of 650Bx42 wheels but there wasn't enough tire clearance, although 650Bx38 would probably work. My 1972 Motobecane Le Champion has the widest clearances of all my vintage bikes, it will take 650Bx42 wheels + fenders with room to spare.

Did some mention a Gugificazione of a ‘71 Raleigh International for rando riding and light touring?

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...521f8bcd3.jpeg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3c0047f7f.jpeg

$1100 which is the starting bid is too much dough for this bike.

Is this your size or is it too large?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-197...AAAOSwh61fdPUa