Rust remover broke my chain?
Hello. I installed a SunRace CNM84 chain on my bicycle last year and after many months it rusted so much that it got stiff. Pretty strange that it rusted so strongly despite being plated with chrome or nickel. I didn't have time to lubricate it so I rode my bike with an unlubricated chain which became more flexible after a ride. Now removed the chan and placed it into a bath with phosphoric acid with zinc aka rust remover to remove rust before lubricating it with teflon wax. After a while I started hearing popping sounds and after chain inspection I noticed that many links had cracks! Did rust remover somehow cause breakage or cracks developed from riding an unlubricated rusted chain?
|
Might be hydrogen embrittlement. I wouldn't use anything but lube to free up a rusty chain. It's worked for many that were rusted solid.
|
I don’t think that’s a good product to use, vinegar or wood bleach would have been a safer use. A light wire brush would have been fine. If you had just put lube on your chain would probably be ok, perhaps worn.
|
Originally Posted by elfmachine
(Post 23149203)
Hello. I installed a SunRace CNM84 chain on my bicycle last year and after many months it rusted so much that it got stiff. Pretty strange that it rusted so strongly despite being plated with chrome or nickel. I didn't have time to lubricate it so I rode my bike with an unlubricated chain which became more flexible after a ride. Now removed the chan and placed it into a bath with phosphoric acid with zinc aka rust remover to remove rust before lubricating it with teflon wax. After a while I started hearing popping sounds and after chain inspection I noticed that many links had cracks! Did rust remover somehow cause breakage or cracks developed from riding an unlubricated rusted chain?
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...62ef43162.jpeg Although I would replace any chain that is has rusted stiff enough to not move any more, if you absolutely have to remove rust, use Evapo-Rust which is a chelating agent that doesn’t attack the iron in the chain. It’s far less hazardous than phosphoric acid and won’t damage parts. |
Originally Posted by Mr. 66
(Post 23149217)
I don’t think that’s a good product to use, vinegar or wood bleach would have been a safer use. A light wire brush would have been fine. If you had just put lube on your chain would probably be ok, perhaps worn.
However, if the chain is The Precious and just has to be kept, Evapo-Rust would be a less destructive removal method. |
Originally Posted by elfmachine
(Post 23149203)
Hello. I installed a SunRace CNM84 chain on my bicycle last year and after many months it rusted so much that it got stiff. Pretty strange that it rusted so strongly despite being plated with chrome or nickel. I didn't have time to lubricate it so I rode my bike with an unlubricated chain which became more flexible after a ride. Now removed the chan and placed it into a bath with phosphoric acid with zinc aka rust remover to remove rust before lubricating it with teflon wax. After a while I started hearing popping sounds and after chain inspection I noticed that many links had cracks! Did rust remover somehow cause breakage or cracks developed from riding an unlubricated rusted chain?
I think that your chain broke from simple rust and corrosion. |
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 23149239)
Phosphoric acid is a surface rust remover and should not be used in any kind of bath. The iron in the chain will react with the phosphate which is what lead to your cracking. I suspect that the chain also cracked near the name embossing on the chain plates. The embossing introduces some micro fractures that the phosphoric acid can utilize to get into the metal. That can lead to widening of the cracks and the ultimate failure of the chain. It will look similar to the cracking caused by salt in the picture from this post
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...62ef43162.jpeg Although I would replace any chain that is has rusted stiff enough to not move any more, if you absolutely have to remove rust, use Evapo-Rust which is a chelating agent that doesn’t attack the iron in the chain. It’s far less hazardous than phosphoric acid and won’t damage parts. |
While the chemistry may have sped up the chain's failure as noted by others, you have to keep in mind that the rust itself already compromised it.
Chain plates are thin, so any significant rust means a decent percentage of the plates' cross section is weakened. Concern over weight, and the physical space constraints ensure that chain plates don't have much excess plate material to spare. Light cosmetic rust is fine and can be ignored but serious deep rust is death. Concern about rust should be focused on prevention, not removal, and certainly not removal chemically. |
Originally Posted by bblair
(Post 23149259)
You spent a lot of time working on a chain that you didn't have time to lubricate.
I think that your chain broke from simple rust and corrosion. |
Originally Posted by elfmachine
(Post 23149269)
That's exactly what happened my chain:( Can you explain how acid was able to bread chain links, zinc coating build up? This was bad chain to purchase, should I avoid embossed chains? It was more expensive chain and I hoped it would last longer but I was wrong.
Naval jelly works to take surface rust off of steel exposed to weather but it is meant as a surface treatment. The phosphoric acid reacts with the iron to make iron phosphate which is water insoluble and prevent further rusting but it isn’t meant to be used as a long term soak. It should be allowed to react for perhaps hours but not for more than that. And it is usually used on something that is not load bearing. You might have built up a zinc coating on the surface but the phosphoric acid was eating away at small cracks, making them into larger cracks. If you really need to soak something to get rid of rust, the Evapo-rust solution works better and really is meant to soak for hours to days. |
Originally Posted by FBinNY
(Post 23149275)
While the chemistry may have sped up the chain's failure as noted by others, you have to keep in mind that the rust itself already compromised it.
Chain plates are thin, so any significant rust means a decent percentage of the plates' cross section is weakened. Concern over weight, and the physical space constraints ensure that chain plates don't have much excess plate material to spare. Light cosmetic rust is fine and can be ignored but serious deep rust is death. Concern about rust should be focused on prevention, not removal, and certainly not removal chemically. The rust does indeed consume metal to make the oxide but the amount of iron consumed to make a lot of iron oxide is relatively small. Iron oxide has a volume that is 6 times that of the iron. That would mean that a block of iron 1mm cubed would result in a block of rust 6mm cubed. There isn’t much room inside of the chain plates so even a little bit of rust would bind the mechanism. |
I soaked it only for 10-15 minutes and during this time I heard popping sounds. It is hard to believe that rust remover had enough force to actualy break steel. Could this be chain quality issue, it being fake substandard?
|
Originally Posted by elfmachine
(Post 23149290)
Yes, it was exposed to salt used to melt snow. But I heard popping sounds when I filled the chain with rust remover. I want to know what exactly damaged the chain so as not to repeat mistakes again.
|
Originally Posted by elfmachine
(Post 23149290)
Yes, it was exposed to salt used to melt snow. But I heard popping sounds when I filled the chain with rust remover. I want to know what exactly damaged the chain so as not to repeat mistakes again.
Road “salt” can be various different materials that chemists call salts. All of the “salts” used on roads are going to be chloride based but any substance formed from a Bronstead-Lowry acid/base reaction is a “salt”. For the chloride salts commonly used, all of them are hygroscopic or “water absorbing” but some are more hygroscopic than others. The hygroscopic mechanism literally sucks water out of the air and makes the salt wet. “Mag chloride” does a much better job of sucking water out the air than sodium chloride. If the salt were dry, it would do nothing to the metal. But add in just a little bit of water and the salt and metal start to dance like it’s Prom night! The chloride in the salts pluck iron atoms out of the metal and then exchanges the chloride for oxygen which releases the chloride to go back and get a new partner. This keeps up until all the iron have been married to oxygen or until the system dries out…which is almost never. Phosphoric acid doesn’t do the same kind of dance but it is quicker at reaction with the iron to make iron phosphate…kind of like a rave vs Prom night. The reason it is used to remove “rust” is because the phosphate iron will take the place of the oxygen in the iron oxide compound. It also reacts with the unoxidized iron quite readily leading to removal of that iron. Micro cracks caused by the embossing just offer an area where there is more surface area than on the flat of the metal. Lubricants, by the way, do serve a propose to keep the salt out of the chain and to keep most moisture out. They are party poopers:rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by grumpus
(Post 23149324)
Using a chain in salty conditions, you need to regularly wash off the salt, displace/dry remaining moisture and add lubricant. If that's too much effort, at least keep it well lubricated, it doesn't take long to drip on some oil. Good fenders can help keep salt and grit off the chain. Chains are consumable items, as soon as they get stiff and rusty it's time to replace them, and treat the new one better than the old one: then you might wear it out instead of letting it rot.
|
Originally Posted by elfmachine
(Post 23149314)
I soaked it only for 10-15 minutes and during this time I heard popping sounds. It is hard to believe that rust remover had enough force to actualy break steel. Could this be chain quality issue, it being fake substandard?
What you didn't consider is that each outer plate is force fit over the pin. That means that there's considerable radial stress at every pin. What happened is that the now weakened plates cracked under that stress. |
It is interesting to read a thread and see the repeated, confirmed, missing at first and added later details go through their "dance".
I think this thread just shows one of the lacking aspects of a wax chain lube... The ability to "recoat" the chain's surface where it has rubbed against itself, sprocket teeth and der cages is a big reason why wet lubes are better in wet conditions. Andy (who has lived in the Rust Belt most of his life) |
Originally Posted by elfmachine
(Post 23149334)
I stopped lubricating chain with oil and now I use cleaner method of dipping chain in microcrystallne wax with teflon powder. But before doing that I clean away grit with water and used rust remover to remove excess rust. Are there chains made of more corrosion resistant alloys?
|
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 23149313)
While I agree that the chain should be replaced if it is that rusted, I don’t think that a rusted chain is necessarily severely weakened.....
Badly rusted chains are most definitely compromised. The OP's didn't fail under load, it failed from pin stress. Given the potential consequences of chain failure under load, which run from inconvenience to serious injury, trying to save such chain doesn't make sense, even if time weren't a factor. |
Originally Posted by grumpus
(Post 23149359)
There are titanium chains, but just frequent rinsing with water will remove most of the salt from a waxed chain and slow the corrosion.
|
Originally Posted by elfmachine
(Post 23149314)
I soaked it only for 10-15 minutes and during this time I heard popping sounds. It is hard to believe that rust remover had enough force to actualy break steel. Could this be chain quality issue, it being fake substandard?
SunRace products are cheap. They may not be using the best steel around for their chains. Shimming a bit further out on the speculating limb, there may have some aluminum in the Slagesium that is used for very cheap bicycle products. Aluminum doesn’t alloy with iron so you may have been hearing reactions of the aluminum with the phosphoric acid mixture which can form hydrogen gas. That, however, is very wild speculation. I may have fallen off the limb entirely. I have used some of their cassettes and they are pretty good products. I don’t know that I would use one of their chains, however. I don’t spend a lot of money on chains but using a SunRace one is probably too cheap for me. At this point it would probably be difficult to replicate your observations. You can learn from this exercise with the biggest take away being “don’t do that!” Other lessons would be lubricate your chain, rinse it often, and, if it gets stiff with rust, just replace it. |
Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
(Post 23149347)
I think this thread just shows one of the lacking aspects of a wax chain lube... The ability to "recoat" the chain's surface where it has rubbed against itself, sprocket teeth and der cages is a big reason why wet lubes are better in wet conditions. Andy (who has lived in the Rust Belt most of his life) Chains have a relatively short service life, so it's not necessary to totally prevent rust. It's only necessary to slow it enough that the chain wears out before rust is a problem. This is easy enough for those who actually ride their bikes, regardless of their choice of lubes. |
Lubing a chain takes about 1 minute pedal backwards drip some lube on to the chain and then continue pedaling backwards with a rag and wipe the excess. That is simple and easy and will get you done and at least prevent rusting. Sure you could spend more time and clean and lube but you claim to not have any time which is guaranteed not to be true in any form or fashion, so the quick lube will work.
Laziness gets expensive over time if you keep claiming I don't have time for this and that and the bike falls further into disrepair more and more will fail and you will spend a lot to get the bike working safely and properly again. Just take some time here and there to care for your bike or purchase a bike that requires a little less maintenance like a belt drive single speed. Light rust can happen and certainly as a commuter in winter on roads that get heavily salted it is problematic but a quick lube and wipe will stop that and rising the bike off once and while will also help and cost little and take little time. I would say spending 10 minutes a week on maintenance which would leave you 10070 minutes the rest of the week will help you greatly or at the absolute barest minimum take those 10 minutes and do it monthly and you will still have about 43790 minutes left to do other things. And 10 minutes is a lot of time and you might find you can do it in less. You don't need a hose or special tools. You can wipe down your bike with an old t-shirt and some lightly diluted Dr. Bronners and put it in a spray bottle to make it easier and you can wipe your chain with that old t-shirt once the bike is clean and lube it with a basic bottle of lube from the bike shop, I like wax lubes personally and then maybe find another part of the t-shirt and wipe the excess. You can do this on the ground without a stand and without flipping the bike over just lean it on the corner of a wall or something and pedal backwards. Nothing fancy no tricks no advanced skills just super basic cleaning and lubing. Take care of your bike and it will take care of you! |
Originally Posted by FBinNY
(Post 23149345)
The rust remover didn't break the steel.
What you didn't consider is that each outer plate is force fit over the pin. That means that there's considerable radial stress at every pin. What happened is that the now weakened plates cracked under that stress.
Originally Posted by FBinNY
(Post 23149362)
I stand by my original statement, which included the qualifier "significant".
Badly rusted chains are most definitely compromised. The OP's didn't fail under load, it failed from pin stress. Given the potential consequences of chain failure under load, which run from inconvenience to serious injury, trying to save such chain doesn't make sense, even if time weren't a factor. |
Originally Posted by elfmachine
(Post 23149203)
Hello. I installed a SunRace CNM84 chain on my bicycle last year and after many months it rusted so much that it got stiff. Pretty strange that it rusted so strongly despite being plated with chrome or nickel. I didn't have time to lubricate it so I rode my bike with an unlubricated chain which became more flexible after a ride. Now removed the chan and placed it into a bath with phosphoric acid with zinc aka rust remover to remove rust before lubricating it with teflon wax. After a while I started hearing popping sounds and after chain inspection I noticed that many links had cracks! Did rust remover somehow cause breakage or cracks developed from riding an unlubricated rusted chain?
I'm with the others, regarding which product choices to make. On a flat metal surface needing rejuvenation, a "rust remover" product is a good option, to begin getting rid of such crud. But on a mechanical moving thing like a chain, I wouldn't want a product to "dig" too deeply into the metal. A good de-greasing type product along with some moderate scrubbing would be a better choice, I'd think. And chains are inexpensive enough that instead investing in complete protection from the start will likely yield better results. Frequent salt removal, grease removal, displacement of water, re-greasing/oiling/waxing. In the end, though, it's a consumable. |
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:43 PM. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.