Bike Forums

Bike Forums (https://www.bikeforums.net/forum.php)
-   Commuting (https://www.bikeforums.net/forumdisplay.php?f=20)
-   -   "Salmon-ing" on a Sidewalk? (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=1168646)

parkbrav 03-19-19 07:43 AM

"Salmon-ing" on a Sidewalk?
 
On my "short-cut" commute into work, I'm encountering a cyclist who is salmon-ing (biking against traffic), but on a sidewalk. I will refrain from commenting on what else this cyclist is or is not doing as this will surely divert the topic.

As this cyclist also happens to be commuting to the same office park where I work, would I be "within bounds" to make a comment, or should I keep to myself?

base2 03-19-19 07:51 AM

I would say it's definitely with in bounds. You might make sure you know cycling law as it applies in your locale.

Have a definite "conversation." if the opportunity arises. Have solid reasoning & patience. He may genuinely not know & is riding as he was taught as a pedestrian. Being "wrong" has a way of shutting people down & setting them harder. Your approach is 100% the key, & only then if the opportunity arises organically.

What he does after that is up to him.

Darth Lefty 03-19-19 08:16 AM

Tell him babies ride on the sidewalk. Offer him handlebar streamers. Make him cry.

or not.

robertorolfo 03-19-19 08:49 AM


Originally Posted by parkbrav (Post 20844661)
On my "short-cut" commute into work, I'm encountering a cyclist who is salmon-ing (biking against traffic), but on a sidewalk. I will refrain from commenting on what else this cyclist is or is not doing as this will surely divert the topic.

As this cyclist also happens to be commuting to the same office park where I work, would I be "within bounds" to make a comment, or should I keep to myself?

Where do you live? Is your area heavily populated? Is that sidewalk heavily trafficked? Is he riding fast? Is he riding dangerously?

Sometimes minding your own business is preferable to being pedantic.

350htrr 03-19-19 09:16 AM

The three times I had a close call while driving and they they almost T-Boned me, was with cyclists, when they were salmon-ing on the sidewalk...

fietsbob 03-19-19 09:26 AM

4 lanes, curb to curb traffic , I must use the sidewalk, but I do it at a slow speed and with courtesy ..

pdlamb 03-19-19 09:29 AM

Is it possible to salmon on a sidewalk? I didn't know sidewalks were directional.

HardyWeinberg 03-19-19 09:32 AM

Sidewalks are the place to salmon. Roads with traffic laws are not. I wish all the salmon on my commute would stick to sidewalks since they are demonstrating they can't handle roads.

Mitkraft 03-19-19 09:32 AM

I consider this kind of a gray area because bikes really aren't supposed to be on the sidewalk therefore there isn't really a solid rule on which side they should be on. Pedestrian traffic on the sidewalk is not obligated to be on any particular side of the street, that only applies when walking in the street itself. There are a couple of places I salmon on the sidewalk in my commute because certain sections of the road are very bike unfriendly and either the sidewalk is only on one side or there is some logistical reason to be on that side (obstacles on the other side, upcoming crosswalk only on that side, I'm going a short distance and being on that side makes more sense based on where I came and am going..etc). I'd say unless its a big problem you are better off just minding your own business.

HardyWeinberg 03-19-19 09:32 AM


Originally Posted by pdlamb (Post 20844882)
Is it possible to salmon on a sidewalk? I didn't know sidewalks were directional.

They aren't

mtb_addict 03-19-19 09:39 AM

Police recommend pedestrian walk on the left side of the road so they can see cars and dive out of the way if a car jump the curb. So, side-walk cyclists should also heed that advice. But I admit plenty of times I ride on the right side because of laziness to get to the other side of a busy road.

clengman 03-19-19 09:53 AM


Originally Posted by pdlamb (Post 20844882)
Is it possible to salmon on a sidewalk? I didn't know sidewalks were directional.

I've seen two definitions of salmoning. 1) Riding against the flow, and 2) Filtering to the front and "schooling" between the stop line and the crosswalk... or in the crosswalk... or most of the way into the intersection...

I think the second is the more common definition. I will do this occasionally to improve my ability to be seen at intersections, but generally only when the lanes are wide enough that cars can pass me back easily on the other side of the intersection if they need to.

I don't like riding on the sidewalk, but I probably wouldn't call someone out if they seemed to be doing it safely. Are they riding in the lane most of the time, but only jumping up on the sidewalk to pass to the front of the line? I wouldn't like that at all. I think you gotta pick the place you want to be and stay there. Moving frequently between street and sidewalk is asking for trouble.

RoadKill 03-19-19 10:01 AM

Sidewalks are directional in many areas, and even completely illegal in others. In my city you can get ticketed for riding the wrong direction on the sidewalk.
I'd look up your local laws and see if it's legal. If illegal then you can be the good guy that saves him a ticket.

parkbrav 03-19-19 10:02 AM

I'm on the right hand side of the road, simultaneously other cyclist is salmoning on the left sidewalk, in a light industrial area. The roads are wide and can easily accommodate. No obvious reason why cyclist is choosing to cycle against traffic. Cars, especially those approaching the salmoning cyclist, are going to get confused, aren't they?

mcours2006 03-19-19 10:13 AM

I salmon on a section of my commute where traffic moves at a fast pace, it's dark, and there are no pedestrians on the sidewalk, like ever. If, however, I do encounter one I would slow right down and yield right of way.

As for OP, I'd keep my mouth shut, same reason I'd not say anything to a motorist who rolled a stop sign, or made an illegal turn.

caloso 03-19-19 10:30 AM

I try to not be dogmatic in situations like this. I usually find myself riding (at walking speed) a short block on the sidewalk to door that leads to our bike cage. It's a bit safer and a whole lot more efficient than making a loop around the adjacent block (this part of the grid is all one-way streets).

Mitkraft 03-19-19 10:32 AM


Originally Posted by clengman (Post 20844959)
I've seen two definitions of salmoning. 1) Riding against the flow, and 2) Filtering to the front and "schooling" between the stop line and the crosswalk... or in the crosswalk... or most of the way into the intersection...

I think the second is the more common definition. I will do this occasionally to improve my ability to be seen at intersections, but generally only when the lanes are wide enough that cars can pass me back easily on the other side of the intersection if they need to.

I don't like riding on the sidewalk, but I probably wouldn't call someone out if they seemed to be doing it safely. Are they riding in the lane most of the time, but only jumping up on the sidewalk to pass to the front of the line? I wouldn't like that at all. I think you gotta pick the place you want to be and stay there. Moving frequently between street and sidewalk is asking for trouble.

I'm pretty sure the more common and generally accepted definition of "salmoning" is going against the flow which in cycling terms would be riding opposite the traffic on your side of the road. I've never even heard of the second definition.

no motor? 03-19-19 10:38 AM


Originally Posted by caloso (Post 20845050)
I try to not be dogmatic in situations like this. I usually find myself riding (at walking speed) a short block on the sidewalk to door that leads to our bike cage. It's a bit safer and a whole lot more efficient than making a loop around the adjacent block (this part of the grid is all one-way streets).

Same. My first commute involved salmoning on the sidewalk across the street from the police station for a block. The alternative was to ride in heavier traffic for 5 blocks, and my riding didn't seem to bother anyone as I went slowly and rarely saw anyone else on the sidewalk.

parkbrav 03-19-19 10:38 AM


Originally Posted by Mitkraft (Post 20845055)
I'm pretty sure the more common and generally accepted definition of "salmoning" is going against the flow which in cycling terms would be riding opposite the traffic on your side of the road. I've never even heard if the second definition.

Well, I was using it to refer to a cyclist biking against on-coming traffic, but let's for the sake argument agree there are two or more meanings.

clengman 03-19-19 10:45 AM


Originally Posted by Mitkraft (Post 20845055)
I'm pretty sure the more common and generally accepted definition of "salmoning" is going against the flow which in cycling terms would be riding opposite the traffic on your side of the road. I've never even heard if the second definition.

Ok. Fair enough.

JoeyBike 03-19-19 11:19 AM


Originally Posted by RoadKill (Post 20844976)
Sidewalks are directional in many areas, and even completely illegal in others. In my city you can get ticketed for riding the wrong direction on the sidewalk.
I'd look up your local laws and see if it's legal. If illegal then you can be the good guy that saves him a ticket.

Are pedestrians limited by one way rules as well? I have never encountered such a thing, but I don't have a ton of worldwide sidewalk experience.

Your claim insinuates that it is legal to bike ONE WAY on certain sidewalks as well. Which I doubt is a thing.

parkbrav 03-19-19 11:25 AM

When I started road running in junior high, I was running with traffic. The rest of the team was running against traffic. I got told that running with traffic was wrong because it would potentially confuse drivers when I might pass the other runners who were running against traffic. Because then they would see runners approaching them on both sides of the road and be confused as to how to respond.

And thus, my quandry, it would probably confuse oncoming drivers to see cyclists approaching them in both lanes. Right?

RoadKill 03-19-19 12:00 PM


Originally Posted by JoeyBike (Post 20845195)
Are pedestrians limited by one way rules as well? I have never encountered such a thing, but I don't have a ton of worldwide sidewalk experience.

Your claim insinuates that it is legal to bike ONE WAY on certain sidewalks as well. Which I doubt is a thing.

Instead of being a dick and claiming that I totally made up a fake law you could have quickly done a google search with my city which shows up under my user name.
https://library.municode.com/az/temp...Id=CH7BILIMOVE
Article 5, Sec 7-52, subsection C:
No person shall ride or operate a bicycle, electric bicycle or light motorized vehicle in any direction except that permitted by vehicular traffic on the same side of the roadway where the sidewalk or bicycle lane exists; provided, that bicycles, electric bicycles or light motorized vehicles may proceed either way where signs or pavement markings on the sidewalk, bikeway or bicycle lane appear designating two-way traffic.

parkbrav 03-19-19 12:07 PM


Originally Posted by RoadKill (Post 20845279)
Instead of being a dick and claiming that I totally made up a fake law you could have quickly done a google search with my city which shows up under my user name.
https://library.municode.com/az/temp...Id=CH7BILIMOVE
Article 5, Sec 7-52, subsection C:
No person shall ride or operate a bicycle, electric bicycle or light motorized vehicle in any direction except that permitted by vehicular traffic on the same side of the roadway where the sidewalk or bicycle lane exists; provided, that bicycles, electric bicycles or light motorized vehicles may proceed either way where signs or pavement markings on the sidewalk, bikeway or bicycle lane appear designating two-way traffic.

Ahhh, found what I was looking for. There's a municipal ordinance against all vehicles on the sidewalks in town. Eureka, we have an answer.

Hey, let's avoid the name calling

wipekitty 03-19-19 12:15 PM

IMO, the sidewalk is for people moving slowly - like pedestrians. Small children and the guys chugging along on BSOs/cruisers/BMX on the sidewalk don't bother me, as they are moving slowly. Taking a shortcut on the sidewalk moving slowly - also cool.

If the rider in question is chugging along slowly on the sidewalk, that's probably fine. If they're going faster, it begins to create a danger - both to the rider and to drivers. If I encountered a rider moving along pretty well, I might have a conversation about riding in the road - and offer to show them the way, selling it not as a criticism, but as a positive strategy to save time and get places faster.


Originally Posted by parkbrav (Post 20845207)

And thus, my quandry, it would probably confuse oncoming drivers to see cyclists approaching them in both lanes. Right?

That's a tough one. I think drivers who do not ride (or walk) are generally confused. Some non-cyclists have tried to tell me I'm supposed to be on the wrong side of the road, as they were taught that bike = pedestrian, not bike = vehicle. In the states I've lived in, pedestrians are supposed to go against traffic, and cyclists are supposed to ride with traffic.

So the question is whether the salmoning sidewalk cyclist is more like a pedestrian or a cyclist. I think they might actually be doing the right thing so long as they're moving slowly, but otherwise, belong in the road (as a cyclist, not a pedestrian.)


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:51 PM.


Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.