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-   -   105 or Ultegra Hubs (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=1176938)

TiHabanero 06-29-19 04:18 AM

105 or Ultegra Hubs
 
Any reason not to use 105 or Ultegra hubs for touring? Lots of talk about Deore, Chris King, Phil Wood, etc., but not seeing anything about using the staple road hubs from Shimano.

fietsbob 06-29-19 08:54 AM

Sealing, against grit, was better on Older MTB hubs ..

elcruxio 06-29-19 10:20 AM

In general there isn't a reason not to use Shimano road hubs if they serve the purpose of the wheelset.

I try to find hubs with 36 spokes and I'm not sure if Shimano road hubs offer that option. Nowadays road hubs have rotor mounts so that also widens their use spectrum.

As to phil wood etc. you can get a significantly better price/quality ratio with other manufacturers if you prefer cartridge bearings.

sdmc530 06-29-19 12:11 PM

Ultegra has a 36H hub and its excellent. Or I think so.....I like better than the 105 version personally, easier to deal with the Ultegra system.

Rick 06-29-19 12:37 PM


As to phil wood etc. you can get a significantly better price/quality ratio with other manufacturers if you prefer cartridge bearings.
Phil Wood, Chris King, Paul and White Industries to name a few are in business because of there quality. The Phil wood hubs on my 28 year old tandem are still in perfect running condition. The tandem came with some of those significantly better price/quality ratio sealed bearing hubs. The rear axle bent the first week. The company replaced it and it bent. I ordered Phil Wood hubs and no problems since. My custom touring bicycle came with significantly better price/quality ratio disk brake calipers. They and two other caliper sets did not make me happy. I purchased Paul Klampers and they do what brakes are supposed to do.

elcruxio 06-29-19 03:15 PM


Originally Posted by Rick (Post 21003194)
Phil Wood, Chris King, Paul and White Industries to name a few are in business because of there quality. The Phil wood hubs on my 28 year old tandem are still in perfect running condition. The tandem came with some of those significantly better price/quality ratio sealed bearing hubs. The rear axle bent the first week. The company replaced it and it bent. I ordered Phil Wood hubs and no problems since. My custom touring bicycle came with significantly better price/quality ratio disk brake calipers. They and two other caliper sets did not make me happy. I purchased Paul Klampers and they do what brakes are supposed to do.

For hubs my Hope RS mono has faired admirably with tandem grade loads. It did bust a bearing at one point but bearings are expendables in these types of hubs. Yet it cost a fraction of a Chris King hub. And the one thing I quite liked in the Hope was the fact that they offered a steel freehub. But unlike Shimano steel freehubs this one was made of some seriously thick stu

The brands you mentioned, quality they may be, but it's highly unlikely that the quality is actually any higher than say, DT Swiss or Hope. Probably higher than novatec. Higher than Shimano? Depends on the line. Higher than Sram? Most definitely.

Hubs aren't high tech. In fact, they are incredibly simple devices. Usually the types of aluminum alloys used are quite similar and many hubs are CNC machined+anodized. Boutique stuff always costs more. It has to. They'd go out of business if say, King had to offer hubs at Halo hub prices.

Sme goes with the Paul Clampers. They seem to use the same principle as Avid BB7's

seeker333 06-29-19 04:49 PM


Originally Posted by TiHabanero (Post 21002744)
Any reason not to use 105 or Ultegra hubs for touring? Lots of talk about Deore, Chris King, Phil Wood, etc., but not seeing anything about using the staple road hubs from Shimano.

Road hubs have an OLD (over locknut distance, or spacing between dropouts) of 130mm, and Mtb hubs have an OLD of 135mm. Consequently MTB hubs generally have more hub-center-to-driveside flange distance than road hubs, which results in less wheel dish with MTB hubs. This generally means greater wheel longevity because you can build wheel with more tension on the normally-lower-tensioned non-driveside spokes. If your bike's rear dropouts have 135mm OLD (spacing) then you should definitely use MTB hubs for your wheelbuild (or MTB wheels).

79pmooney 06-29-19 05:21 PM


Originally Posted by seeker333 (Post 21003469)
Road hubs have an OLD (over locknut distance, or spacing between dropouts) of 130mm, and Mtb hubs have an OLD of 135mm. Consequently MTB hubs generally have more hub-center-to-driveside flange distance than road hubs, which results in less wheel dish with MTB hubs. This generally means greater wheel longevity because you can build wheel with more tension on the normally-lower-tensioned non-driveside spokes. If your bike's rear dropouts have 135mm OLD (spacing) then you should definitely use MTB hubs for your wheelbuild (or MTB wheels).

Doesn't this push the cogs further out, moving the chainline out and therefore the crankset? If a less than large Q-factor is important, this could be a step in the wrong direction.

Ben

3speed 06-30-19 03:08 AM

As long as they have decent seals, I don't see why they wouldn't do just fine. Shimano is good about having quality stuff for basically any of their middle tier and above. I do use XT/dynamo hubs on my touring bikes, but the 10sp derailers on my most recent touring are Ultegra. I used them on a tour on some pretty gnarly gravel and have done plenty of commuting and rail trail miles on them with no problems at all.


Originally Posted by Rick (Post 21003194)
My custom touring bicycle came with significantly better price/quality ratio disk brake calipers. They and two other caliper sets did not make me happy. I purchased Paul Klampers and they do what brakes are supposed to do.

*shrug* I've had BB7s on mountain bikes and my touring bike and they'll lock the front wheel on pavement. They modulate well. I've never had a problem with a single caliper after Many miles. Like with any brake, you do need decent pads. Throw on some quality organic pads and you're good to go.

Rick 06-30-19 03:49 AM


The brands you mentioned, quality they may be, but it's highly unlikely that the quality is actually any higher than say, DT Swiss or Hope. Probably higher than novatec. Higher than Shimano? Depends on the line. Higher than Sram? Most definitely.
Your assumptions are incorrect. Phil Wood uses heat treated SS in there hub axles. All the parts are over engineered. If you need to replace a bearing two 5mm hex wrenches are all you need. There hubs are not the lightest either.


Sme goes with the Paul Clampers. They seem to use the same principle as Avid BB7's
Paul uses the one piston system like Avid and several others do. You can make a stronger brake with one piston. Paul did not stop there. There is no perceptible play. There is no flex in them. Paul did not make the mistake like Avid did and put plastic pad adjusters in there calipers. Some tandem riders going down a mountain lost the ability to brake because of the plastic in there brakes. The Klamper is not the lightest mechanical disk brake caliper. It is the best stopping mechanical disk brake out there. Did I mention that the Paul Klamper has bigger balls. Yes the Paul Klampers balls are larger than anybody else's ball bearings.

elcruxio 06-30-19 07:22 AM


Originally Posted by Rick (Post 21003911)
Your assumptions are incorrect. Phil Wood uses heat treated SS in there hub axles. All the parts are over engineered. If you need to replace a bearing two 5mm hex wrenches are all you need. There hubs are not the lightest either.

Yes, and? It could be chromoly for all I care. Also if I recall Shimano used steel in some of their hubs. But it's not really the material but how it is designed.
Like I said, my Hope RS Mono has fared well with a tandem grade touring load (150kg) with an aluminum axle. Doesn't seem to be giving up the ghost just yet.

As to Phil Wood hub service being possible with just a 5mm hex wrench, it's not really 100% accurate is it? It requires a striking tool as well doesn't it? A mallet or a hammer? If we go with these kinds of standards, hope hubs require no tools whatsoever to disassemble and reassemble.

The next touring wheelset I build will likely have DT Swiss hubs. They're pretty much the top of the crop and use pretty darn generic bearings so easy to replace if broken.
And if I had the absolute need to overpay and put something like $600 in hubs I'd get the 540 tandems. But I think I'll do fine with just the typical 350 or 240. They're also easy to convert from QR to thru axle. Not sure if that's possible with Phil Woods.

You need to realize that people go around the globe with Shimano LX hubs. It isn't really that complicated.

Paul uses the one piston system like Avid and several others do. You can make a stronger brake with one piston. Paul did not stop there. There is no perceptible play. There is no flex in them. Paul did not make the mistake like Avid did and put plastic pad adjusters in there calipers. Some tandem riders going down a mountain lost the ability to brake because of the plastic in there brakes. The Klamper is not the lightest mechanical disk brake caliper. It is the best stopping mechanical disk brake out there. Did I mention that the Paul Klamper has bigger balls. Yes the Paul Klampers balls are larger than anybody else's ball bearings.[/QUOTE]

Ok, so here's the thing. I doesn't matter whether there's play or not. No play in the actuator arm probably feels nicer, but it doesn't make a jot of a difference especially in the case of Avid BB7's.
Secondly the no flex thing? I put to you that the 'flex' amounts in Avid BB7 and the Klamper are probably very close to same. What affects more is the flex in the cables, ie. use compressionless housings.

It also seems weird to me that some people have managed to lose braking ability due to the Avid BB7 plastic parts as those parts don't interact with the inner workings of the brake. I'm actually quite baffled how it's even possible for the plastic to somehow get into a position which makes braking impossible. Having taken apart several of these brakes I'd say it's pretty much impossible for that to happen.

Again, BB7's cost a quarter of the Klamper so you get four for one Klamper. Whether there's size difference in ball bearings doesn't seem to matter since BB7's don't seem to suffer many bearing failures.

antokelly 06-30-19 04:21 PM

you won't find fault with 105,butter.

3speed 06-30-19 07:50 PM

@elcruxio Some people have the money and want to spend it. I've put Many miles on BB7s, never had a single problem, and they stop great. But maybe if I had another $100,000 in my bank account I'd find a reason to buy something "nicer" too. If I had $5,000,000 then I wouldn't doubt a decent Lexus might become unsuitable after a while and I'd require a high-end Cadillac or Aston Martin to get around. *shrug* It seems that's just the way it goes.

mstateglfr 07-01-19 09:17 AM


Originally Posted by TiHabanero (Post 21002744)
Any reason not to use 105 or Ultegra hubs for touring? Lots of talk about Deore, Chris King, Phil Wood, etc., but not seeing anything about using the staple road hubs from Shimano.

I have some 5800 105 hubs with 36h that are on my current gravel bike which is being turned into a touring bike. They will see less extreme use in touring bike setup that they did in the gravel bike setup so I have no second thoughts about if they will work OK.
The new 105 and Ultegra hubs are easier to service than older versions of each hub- easier to take apart and easier to set back to proper tension.

The only reasons to not use 105 or Ultegra hubs for touring is if your rear is 135 or if you want a lighter weight hub. Being 130 OLD, road hubs arent used a lot on new builds since most touring bikes are set at 135 or 142mm. Also, Shimano hubs are not light compared to quality Bitex or various similar quality hubs.
My 105 5800 hubs are sealed fine for what I will need. They held out dry dirt, mud, grit & grime, and water for multiple years of gravel riding while spinning smoothly the whole time.

fietsbob 07-01-19 09:46 AM

Being in Finland you are closer to the UK, EU sources for a lot of parts ,

US bikes from Pac Rim suppliers do not Fit..



The 10x1 steel threaded axles were common to both Deore, Road And their Tandem hubs
and so swapping a longer axle into a road hum is doable

Oregon's Co Motion even built their touring frames extra wide , 145.
so spoked hub became centered under the rim symmetrically braced, near dishless ..

and Shimano's tandem hubs with 40 &48 spoke holes became usable..


Clever thing Paul did, made 3 different actuating arm lengths ,
Campag Brifrer users got a shorter arm . to pair with their high MA.


For my brakes, I moved from BB7 to TRP HyRd.. (Bike Friday pocket Llama)..


...

noglider 07-01-19 10:19 AM

Shimano hubs are excellent. Even the lower level models are pretty darned good. But getting a higher model can definitely pay off. I'm a bit of a reverse snob, and I generally say that component levels are largely nonsense. But I make an exception with hubs. If you can afford 105 hubs, get them. If you can afford Ultegra, you're not wasting your money. Maybe you're wasting money with Dura Ace, but it's an investment that will last a long time, so even those are not stupid. But I'm happy with very low-level brakes and derailleurs. It's a lot of hype and profit from the bottom to the top of the line.

robow 07-06-19 07:30 AM


Originally Posted by antokelly (Post 21004644)
you won't find fault with 105,butter.

+1 And if you were ever to have problems on the road, which is really rare if they're well maintained, you'll find parts for Shimano a lot easier than you will for more exotic brands.

djb 07-06-19 09:02 AM

given the long lives Ive gotten out of deore and xt stuff, I would imagine that the diff between 105 and ultegra is probably a weight thing? ie that the tolerances and cone cup material quality is right up there with the 105 still?

I have noticed that xt stuff used to be of higher quality compared to deore, and perhaps better seals like fiets said.

for touring purposes, you may want to try to get informed answers about ultegra , ie if the "lighter this and that for racing to save x grams" thing would be a negative?

going from my experience working and servicing hubs that range from low end, to middle (deore lx) to XT stuff, I have noticed that its worth it in the long run for XT, as they seem to seal out stuff better, and therefore grease stays cleaner--and seem to have slightly higher quality cone metal and all that, and higher tolerances of better machinng etc.

personally Id value better sealing over saving a few grams, and to my unexperienced view, ultegra may be just a lot more expensive vs the same thing with 105 for a scant grams heavier

to me, both are clearly great quality, so maybe try to find out if the sealing is better on the 105s, or if the same, if it comes down to twice the price for ultegra because you save 50 grams or something.

its the old "cost/value/functionality" balance thing

Doug64 07-07-19 11:02 AM


Originally Posted by djb (Post 21013826)
given the long lives Ive gotten out of deore and xt stuff, I would imagine that the diff between 105 and ultegra is probably a weight thing? ie that the tolerances and cone cup material quality is right up there with the 105 still?

I have noticed that xt stuff used to be of higher quality compared to deore, and perhaps better seals like fiets said.

for touring purposes, you may want to try to get informed answers about ultegra , ie if the "lighter this and that for racing to save x grams" thing would be a negative?

going from my experience working and servicing hubs that range from low end, to middle (deore lx) to XT stuff, I have noticed that its worth it in the long run for XT, as they seem to seal out stuff better, and therefore grease stays cleaner--and seem to have slightly higher quality cone metal and all that, and higher tolerances of better machinng etc.

personally Id value better sealing over saving a few grams, and to my unexperienced view, ultegra may be just a lot more expensive vs the same thing with 105 for a scant grams heavier

to me, both are clearly great quality, so maybe try to find out if the sealing is better on the 105s, or if the same, if it comes down to twice the price for ultegra because you save 50 grams or something.

its the old "cost/value/functionality" balance thing

My wife runs Ultegra on her touring bike (22,000 miles), and I use 105 on mine.

Both sets of hubs have had hard use in all conditions and road surfaces.

I believe that seals and axle assemblies for our hubs are interchangeable.

djb 07-07-19 11:04 AM

Hi Doug, is there a big big difference in price? And what about the 36h availability of both?

masi61 07-07-19 12:21 PM

The current Ultegra hubs have the newer oversize aluminum axle with the newer cone adjustment procedure where I want to say the cone is tightened on one side only in a series of clicks.

AFAIK, the current generation 105 hubs may retain the classic method of rebuilding the bearings where there are just your ordinary cones, spacers and locknuts meaning that they are adjusted with cone wrenches and a regular metric wrench for the locknuts.

The Ultegra 6800, 8000 series use this newer system the same as Dura Ace 9000 where then bearing cone set up is done I want to say with a metric Allen wrench.

Doug64 07-07-19 12:46 PM

Yeah, I was talking about the older 105 and Ultegra hubs, the 5600 and 6600 series. As far as I can tell, the Ultegra hubs have a nicer finish. There might be other differences, but they are not obvious.

veganbikes 07-07-19 02:03 PM

Ultegra hubs are nice but for touring I want sealed bearings personally. I know some will disagree but they are all wrong :roflmao2:

My favorite road hubs are White Industries T11s, they are MUSA, good quality but aren't super expensive (considering they are MUSA) and they also look nice. You can also get them in different colors and a bunch of different drillings as needed. If you are running a MTB or touring bike that is 135 spaced without discs they also make the MI5 which is a bit burlier (and can be done on request for 130mm spacing). Also the folks who work their are super nice and easy to deal with and they make other products which are fantastic and couldn't recommend enough.

I will say though that I like the finish on the Ultegra hubs, that grey is one of my favorites.

Doug64 07-07-19 03:30 PM


Originally Posted by djb (Post 21015172)
Hi Doug, is there a big big difference in price? And what about the 36h availability of both?

There was not a huge difference in price. I got them as a package deal when I had the wheels built. Both sets of hubs are 36 spokes.

djb 07-07-19 06:53 PM


Originally Posted by Doug64 (Post 21015564)
There was not a huge difference in price. I got them as a package deal when I had the wheels built. Both sets of hubs are 36 spokes.

I recall now you mentioning that. And you gave me the name of the company too.

re hub quality and all that, as you say comparing the 105 and ultegras, both performed great, so I suspect that with all hubs, doing regular regreasing and making sure the cones are properly adjusted is the big key thing. That has been my observation over the years, and that at this level of hub quality/price, they are all really well made.


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