Wheel build advice
I made a promise to myself that this winter I'd clean up the tubular wheelset that came with the Bianchi I purchased in late July. My intention is to have a dedicated tubular bike which I reserve for specific types of rides. Anyway, I came across this issue earlier and had forgotten to ask the collective about it until now.
The wheels were built with a classic 4-cross lacing. However, unlike every 4-cross lacing I've ever come across the outer spokes do not pass over the first three spokes and underneath the fourth, they simply pass over all four spokes. I've not ridden them yet (need truing, glue was dry and tires peeled right off with zero pressure, stuff like that), but wouldn't this cause excessive flex in the wheel? Here's a visual for clarity: https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3209a75099.jpg I leave the wheel stuff to the pros. I'm too old to learn this particular new trick - or more like, I can't currently be bothered :) What I am trying to decide is which direction I want to go in. If I don't have to rebuild, I'll feel fine about the look. If I have to rebuild, I'd prefer then to upgrade with better spokes and perhaps virgin rims as well. Hmmm.. What do you all think? Is this a poorly-built and potentially weak lacing? Does it need to be rectified or is it fine as it sits (truing notwithstanding)? Thanks! DD |
My guess is someone just goofed lacing the wheels, and no one ever caught it or cared.
if the rims are in good shape someone could relieve the tension and just slip the offending spokes back under where they belong. |
Looks like 4 cross to me. Seems to me the weaving that last cross adds lateral strength and probably makes the wheel harder to keep true.
Me, I'd rebuild it, because I can and have the tools. |
Brandt says it improves reliability because you have a second spoke that can take up some of the slack in the first one if that one is detensioned for some reason, and gives slightly more spoke clearance for the RD. It's not such a big issue on front wheels which are less loaded and frequently built 0-cross with no interlacing possible. It's a bigger issue on the rear because of torque and asymmetry. Even though rear wheels are often build radial NDS, crossed NDS spokes still transmit some torque, and leading spokes tend to detension under torque.
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That is a 4X pattern on a medium flange hub, and those look like pretty heavy gauge spokes, so I can see why the builder didn't interlace the outermost cross. Try it out and see if you have enough flex in the spokes to do the outer cross properly. This is one reason I have gravitated to 3X in most of my builds -- lacing the spokes is generally easier, and I don't think there is any significant difference in wheel strength or stiffness. I always liked the fact that 4X torque spokes pull almost tangentially to the rim, but how important is that in actuality?
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Originally Posted by jcb3
(Post 21269187)
Looks like 4 cross to me. Seems to me the weaving that last cross adds lateral strength and probably makes the wheel harder to keep true.
Me, I'd rebuild it, because I can and have the tools. DD |
Originally Posted by John E
(Post 21269223)
Try it out and see if you have enough flex in the spokes to do the outer cross properly.
DD |
If I did anything to interweave the spokes I would detension to whole wheel and then remove and weave 2 at a time. Could be a great time to replace the rim also, new nipples would be good.
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Drillium Dude,
Why mess with something that is working? Lacing on wheels is kind of over-rated, just like is it three or four cross? The lacing thing does very little in the bigger picture of tensions to hub and rim. I build my wheels differently than Jobst-Brant, but they have withstood Race Across America just fine. JMHO, MH |
Originally Posted by Mad Honk
(Post 21269316)
Drillium Dude,
Why mess with something that is working? DD |
Originally Posted by bwilli88
(Post 21269295)
If I did anything to interweave the spokes I would detension to whole wheel and then remove and weave 2 at a time.
On each of my winter projects (like those on my Fuji) I completely detention both wheels to ensure the nipples are ok - turn freely on the spoke and within the rim hole. Those wheels sure look like a "dogs breakfast" when all relaxed. But some good tunes, hot cuppa and take my time and after a while, boing, the dmmmmmn thing is tensioned and true. Neato! Wheels don't intimidate me any more. Go go for it. |
My Schwinn factory training in the mid eighties taught me to interlace, so that's how I've always built wheels. (Except for my radially spoked front wheel!)
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First time I ran across this was while working as a mechanic at a bike shop, I think one bike was an Orange Raleigh Record- it works, was not harder to true that other wheels. If a spoke breaks on the rear wheel, might create more of a mess.
I would switch it to the more “expected” way, just conforming aesthetics I suppose. I would get tired of answering the questions. probably marginally faster to build the wheel without interlacing. |
Tie and solder
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Originally Posted by bwilli88
(Post 21269295)
If I did anything to interweave the spokes I would detension to whole wheel and then remove and weave 2 at a time. Could be a great time to replace the rim also, new nipples would be good.
DD |
Originally Posted by Mad Honk
(Post 21269325)
DD,
You are working in a hypothetical world on this one. The wheel in question is true and moving correctly? And you want to change it. Why? Smiles, MH DD |
Originally Posted by Prowler
(Post 21269346)
Me too, two at a time. You'll also ensure that all the nipples are turning free and smooth. This is a great to start learning wheel building. I started when I just past 60yrs. "Too old". Only in your mind.
On each of my winter projects (like those on my Fuji) I completely detention both wheels to ensure the nipples are ok - turn freely on the spoke and within the rim hole. Those wheels sure look like a "dogs breakfast" when all relaxed. But some good tunes, hot cuppa and take my time and after a while, boing, the dmmmmmn thing is tensioned and true. Neato! Wheels don't intimidate me any more. Go go for it. I'm kinda mixed on what I want to do with this pair. They came on the Bianchi, but I think I'm going to use them on the Casati. I've seen at least one reference to the spokes as being heavy gauge and that would help to keep this a strong wheelset - and the aesthetics aren't even a problem for use on the Casati. So keeping the old ratty spokes and used rims (marked braking surface, but not much wear) might be the way to go - I could just replace all the nipples for safety's sake, I suppose. DD |
Originally Posted by Bianchi84
(Post 21269397)
My Schwinn factory training in the mid eighties taught me to interlace, so that's how I've always built wheels. (Except for my radially spoked front wheel!)
DD |
Originally Posted by unterhausen
(Post 21269425)
Tie and solder
But yeah, I suppose that would do it. I think I'm going to disassemble them first, see if I can return them to service. DD |
Originally Posted by Drillium Dude
(Post 21269557)
Oh, I will try the de-tension and who knows, maybe replace each spoke and nipple in each wheel one at a time for my first "wheel build". DD
I vote replacing them all, one at a time, is not a good way to start. Too much frustration and you'll probably scratch the rims a couple times. However if you want to try a few on a scrap wheel, that would learn ya something. Your LBS may have scrap wheels. |
I goofed like this on a set before. It was fine on the front but on the rear when standing on a hill I got the occasional spoke rub on the deraileur. The front is still true after 2000+. FWIW I used straight gauge spokes on high flange hubs with Ambrosio Olympic tubular rims.
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If you rebuld then or build new wheels go for 'Crow's Foot' lacing. Very unique
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3f55de4f79.jpg |
Originally Posted by repechage
(Post 21269411)
First time I ran across this was while working as a mechanic at a bike shop, I think one bike was an Orange Raleigh Record- it works, was not harder to true that other wheels. […] probably marginally faster to build the wheel without interlacing.
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It looks good, everything is well cleaned, there is a lot of work to do in such an intervention, we can also use different chemicals to do this cleaning and we can also use various brushes.
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Schwinn
Originally Posted by Drillium Dude
(Post 21269558)
Exactly. I've never seen this before. When something is out of the norm - and out of my wheelhouse - I ask the experts. I'm honestly surprised (happily so) that it appears the consensus is that most would re-do the wheel, but also agree it doesn't make much difference except aesthetically. I hardly notice it. I found this anomaly totally by accident when trying to straighten out the Bianchi's rear triangle this past summer.
DD (That picture doesn't really seem to match that "NOTE".) https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...349d66fee2.png |
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