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-   -   Blasptwenty: Overdone, over-complicated mod build for video rig (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=1156170)

cudak888 09-26-18 11:21 PM

The build idea has taken an interesting turn - I just snagged this stabilizer of eBay, which opens up a lot of interesting opportunities for the front, soon as I braze a bracket to hold the mounting peg to the frame:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...88567fb4e0.jpg


Also considering the (blasphemy) of throwing a suspension fork on it to help ease out the bumps, but I can't find any 20" forks that have 1" steerers - at least, none that are remotely decent.

-Kurt

PilotFishBob 09-27-18 04:57 AM

Interesting stabilizer - it almost looks like 1/2 of a Steadicam rig. I worked with those briefly long ago.

cudak888 09-27-18 05:17 AM


Originally Posted by PilotFishBob (Post 20588227)
Interesting stabilizer - it almost looks like 1/2 of a Steadicam rig. I worked with those briefly long ago.

That's exactly what it is - the springarm from a Glidecam V-8. I'm figuring on mounting it to the headtube (as opposed to a vest) and perching the electric gimbal on it, in place of the usual sled.

-Kurt

pastorbobnlnh 09-27-18 05:22 AM


Originally Posted by cudak888 (Post 20588121)
...Also considering the (blasphemy) of throwing a suspension fork on it to help ease out the bumps, but I can't find any 20" forks that have 1" steerers - at least, none that are remotely decent.

-Kurt

Time to find a Moulton with its front and rear suspension. Racks included. More $$$-$$,$$$ and more mods or a new cheese grater! :innocent:

cudak888 09-27-18 05:44 AM


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 20588246)
Time to find a Moulton with its front and rear suspension. Racks included. More $$$-$$,$$$ and more mods or a new cheese grater! :innocent:

I've thought of it. It also has mounting surfaces built in too.

Thing is, I have no experience with them, nor do I want to rip one apart (especially since I've never had an experience to own a good one). Fact is, I would be more readily willing to add suspension to the rear of the Twenty (especially since I have a wrecked ProFlex kicking about that I can use for inspiration + parts) - not that I want to - before I'd want to desecrate a Moulton.

I also don't know just how soft the Moulton suspension is. Then again, I don't really know what I'd get out of anything modern either. Toying with the idea of one of those ill-advised, mad scientist homebrews.

-Kurt

rhm 09-27-18 06:21 AM


Originally Posted by cudak888 (Post 20588265)

Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 20588246)
...Time to find a Moulton with its front and rear suspension. Racks included. More $$$-$$,$$$ and more mods or a new cheese grater! :innocent:

I've thought of it. It also has mounting surfaces built in too.

Thing is, I have no experience with them, nor do I want to rip one apart (especially since I've never had an experience to own a good one). Fact is, I would be more readily willing to add suspension to the rear of the Twenty (especially since I have a wrecked ProFlex kicking about that I can use for inspiration + parts) - not that I want to - before I'd want to desecrate a Moulton.

I also don't know just how soft the Moulton suspension is. Then again, I don't really know what I'd get out of anything modern either. Toying with the idea of one of those ill-advised, mad scientist homebrews.

-Kurt

The suspension on the old F-frame Moultons is pretty good at my weight (170 lbs). The rear suspension is basically a rubber cushion that can probably be replaced pretty easily. The front suspension is a large spring inside the head tube, making for a pretty complicated headset that I've never taken apart. My guess is the softness of the suspension could be adjusted by changing the spring or something, but it would be a project.

On the old Moultons I've seen, the racks were bent and/or broken. They mount directly to the frame, but they are not very strong.

I'm inclined to think Kurt is on the right track, modifying a Twenty. If front suspension proves necessary, there are suspension forks that will fit.

cudak888 09-27-18 06:31 AM


Originally Posted by rhm (Post 20588312)
The suspension on the old F-frame Moultons is pretty good at my weight (170 lbs). The rear suspension is basically a rubber cushion that can probably be replaced pretty easily. The front suspension is a large spring inside the head tube, making for a pretty complicated headset that I've never taken apart. My guess is the softness of the suspension could be adjusted by changing the spring or something, but it would be a project.

On the old Moultons I've seen, the racks were bent and/or broken. They mount directly to the frame, but they are not very strong.

I'm inclined to think Kurt is on the right track, modifying a Twenty. If front suspension proves necessary, there are suspension forks that will fit.

Sounds both complicated and fragile. One of the reasons I chose the Twenty is because the main tube is pretty overbuilt. Good place to start.

That said, I did some sketches yesterday at work. Didnít draw the gimbal on it though; figured I would start slow.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f71786971.jpeg

Thereís also this highly ill-advised idea...

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...48c8eba66.jpeg

noglider 09-27-18 07:48 AM

The Moulton is an incredible bike. It rides like a large wheeled bike. But I doubt it is smooth enough to achieve what you want with camera stabilization.

You might want to try what you would call an indecent fork, say from a kid's bike.

cudak888 09-27-18 08:47 AM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 20588423)
The Moulton is an incredible bike. It rides like a large wheeled bike. But I doubt it is smooth enough to achieve what you want with camera stabilization.

You might want to try what you would call an indecent fork, say from a kid's bike.

A. Now I want a Moulton.

B. I considered some cheap bike fork alternatives. The performance of those forks I know all too well.

I doubt if any of those would provide the smoothness required.

-Kurt

noglider 09-27-18 12:35 PM

OK I have no experience with cheap forks. I figured, how bad could one be? But what do I know!

As for wanting a Moulton, do not contact Chris in Miami, because if he gives you a test ride, you will definitely want one. :lol:

cudak888 09-27-18 01:13 PM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 20588918)
OK I have no experience with cheap forks. I figured, how bad could one be? But what do I know!

As for wanting a Moulton, do not contact Chris in Miami, because if he gives you a test ride, you will definitely want one. :lol:

I know Chris. Itís a good thing for him that I donít know where he keeps his Moulton. 🤣

rumrunn6 09-27-18 01:23 PM

bravo! good luck with that heavy camera!

clubman 09-27-18 03:22 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by cudak888 (Post 20588528)


A. Now I want a Moulton.

B. I considered some cheap bike fork alternatives. The performance of those forks I know all too well.

I doubt if any of those would provide the smoothness required.

-Kurt

The key is getting a mount secured to the frame in the centre of the wheelbase. Any camera mounted over a wheel will suffer maximum input from any bumps.

Tom's right about the Moulton. Simple suspension that's as smooth as glass. I think the wheelbase is decent as well. So mount your gimbal on a vertical post welded to the middle of a Moulton. Use a B-66 and the longest Porteur style bars with a short stem to give you an upright seat position. Add a mount for a monitor. F-frame = Fellini frame

Crude mock up. Needs matching angle for 'gimbal tube'

.

cudak888 09-27-18 05:57 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20589176)
The key is getting a mount secured to the frame in the centre of the wheelbase. Any camera mounted over a wheel will suffer maximum input from any bumps.

Tom's right about the Moulton. Simple suspension that's as smooth as glass. I think the wheelbase is decent as well. So mount your gimbal on a vertical post welded to the middle of a Moulton. Use a B-66 and the longest Porteur style bars with a short stem to give you an upright seat position. Add a mount for a monitor. F-frame = Fellini frame

Crude mock up. Needs matching angle for 'gimbal tube'

.

At that rate, I'd put a rollcage over the top and run the camera on a rotating jib, as they do with automobile camera rigs. By that point, it would make more sense to mount it on a recumbent (which isn't a bad idea either, with exception to transport).

I see your point about the vibration at the front, though the vibration I've experienced in the '70 Twenty is enough that the mounting location might not really make much difference.

If I really wanted to go all out and give the Twenty dual suspension though, it'd probably be possible with a few repurposed MTB parts and some reworking of the seatstays (and, of course, chainstay pivot). Only thing is that it might have quite a bit of brake dive - the anti-rise line will be pretty steep.

We'll see.

-Kurt

clubman 09-27-18 10:13 PM

Thinking twice about it, I think a helmet or shoulder harness with the gimbal mounted camera, (or higher end steadicam rig) on an unadulterated Moulton would give you what you want. And a smooth classic bike for the stable and future productions. Mount an external monitor to where it's seen best and Bob's your Uncle.

I've had Twenty's and they really aren't in the same class as Moultons in many respects. Moultons, even mid 60's F frames, are closer to road bikes while Twenty's are more akin to English Sports models. Go see Chris in Miami? :thumb:

clubman 09-27-18 10:29 PM

1 Attachment(s)
If you want to go with a front mount, the rack is there for you and you can put draft, er I mean craft services on the rear. All alloy '64 with high pressure rims and rear fork reinforced brackets as recommended by Mouton enthusiasts.

pastorbobnlnh 09-28-18 04:18 AM

Somehow I knew a Moulton would be the answer to all Kurt's questions. :D Iconic, classic, vintage, and unusual--- all rolled into one fine bicycle.

Now the trick is to find one at the Stump Dump and it's his for the cost of shipping!

One of these days I need to head to Nova Scotia and visit @clubman and his collection. I had no idea he was so versed in video/filming equipment.

clubman 09-28-18 07:26 AM


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh;20589783
One of these days I need to head to Nova Scotia and visit [MENTION=185977
clubman[/MENTION] and his collection. I had no idea he was so versed in video/filming equipment.

I'd love some company Pastorbob. We're too far from everything out here and the roads are fabulous. Anytime
I was a broadcast cameraguy and post production editor for 30 years

noglider 09-28-18 09:27 AM

@clubman, where in NS are you? I've always wanted to see that province.

clubman 09-28-18 01:15 PM

Wolfville, a small, charming university town at the top of the Annapolis Valley. The Valley is the breadbasket of Nova Scotia, lot's of small farms with a nice little ecosystem. The province as a whole is diverse and beautiful but quite poor. It's relied on fishing, shipbuilding, forestry and agriculture from the beginning and that only carries you so far in this world. Lot's of universities though, resulting in Nova Scotians having more post secondary education than any other province. They become academics or leave these days.

I had my second knee surgery on Monday so you guys let me heal up this winter and get some spring training under my belt. I'd be happy to host any of you good folks passing through my hood.

Sorry for the derail Kurt! Keep us in the loop.

squirtdad 09-28-18 04:19 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20589620)
you can put draft, er i mean craft services on the rear.

lol

squirtdad 09-28-18 04:30 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20590569)
Wolfville, a small, charming university town at the top of the Annapolis Valley. The Valley is the breadbasket of Nova Scotia, lot's of small farms with a nice little ecosystem. The province as a whole is diverse and beautiful but quite poor. It's relied on fishing, shipbuilding, forestry and agriculture from the beginning and that only carries you so far in this world. Lot's of universities though, resulting in Nova Scotians having more post secondary education than any other province. They become academics or leave these days.

I had my second knee surgery on Monday so you guys let me heal up this winter and get some spring training under my belt. I'd be happy to host any of you good folks passing through my hood.

Sorry for the derail Kurt! Keep us in the loop.

I have been to Halifax and Pictou. (my USCG boat with the official US Representive to the 1975 or 76 Pictou Lobster festival.......great people. An I grew up listening to the Don Messer Jubilee on CBC....as we got Canadian TV better than American in town I grew up in in Montana.

pastorbobnlnh 09-29-18 04:52 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20589972)
I'd love some company Pastorbob. We're too far from everything out here and the roads are fabulous. Anytime
I was a broadcast cameraguy and post production editor for 30 years

You and @cudak888 need to meet up with @BluesDaddy at some point. He's a cameraguy for NH's only commercial TV station.

Another knee replacement? Ouch! I'm so glad mine are holding up!

4.5 years until retirement. When that occurs NS is on my short list for a bicycling summer trip!

Now back to building Kurt's ultimate 20" wheeled C&V video camera mount with ultimate stabilization and bicycle POV. We must keep the kiddies safe!

cudak888 09-30-18 09:43 PM

Update - spent some time at Terraferma's and turned this little Twenty's BB into 24TPI:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3a84415cb4.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...16544d0188.jpg


The bad news is that his Campag taps are pretty dull; thus, we couldn't cut cut deep enough (into the steel) to get the facing tool inserts installed. Will have to go to one of the LBS to see if they can finish this off for me.


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20589605)
Thinking twice about it, I think a helmet or shoulder harness with the gimbal mounted camera, (or higher end steadicam rig) on an unadulterated Moulton would give you what you want. And a smooth classic bike for the stable and future productions. Mount an external monitor to where it's seen best and Bob's your Uncle.

I've had Twenty's and they really aren't in the same class as Moultons in many respects. Moultons, even mid 60's F frames, are closer to road bikes while Twenty's are more akin to English Sports models. Go see Chris in Miami? :thumb:

Never thought of the gimbal on a helmet, but I still wonder just how smooth that might be. May also be too much to process moving my head and riding at the same time. I'm often looking about too, as I'm usually running alongside the kids and parents in the group rides on the second lane - which is often shared with police cars and motorcycles corking traffic and what not.

Handlebar gets the monitor.

I think I get it - the Moulton is a fine wine vs. the Twenty as a decent good beer. I think. Heck, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about here as I've never had either. Still, I know the Twenty, they're easy to get, overbuilt, and I don't mind turning this one upside-down in originality if mostly an experiment.

I haven't seen Chris since I sold him the Match Paramount. And as much as I wouldn't mind catching up, I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of Moultons...just yet.


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20589620)
If you want to go with a front mount, the rack is there for you and you can put draft, er I mean craft services on the rear. All alloy '64 with high pressure rims and rear fork reinforced brackets as recommended by Mouton enthusiasts.

Hey, at least there's room for the Pelican cases.


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 20589783)
Somehow I knew a Moulton would be the answer to all Kurt's questions. :D Iconic, classic, vintage, and unusual--- all rolled into one fine bicycle.

Now the trick is to find one at the Stump Dump and it's his for the cost of shipping!

One of these days I need to head to Nova Scotia and visit @clubman and his collection. I had no idea he was so versed in video/filming equipment.

That reminds me that I really have to do something about the '80 Sports/Stumpy. I don't want to put it back into the shed and forget all about putting some brakes on it again.

On a side note - no offense to Bob - Stumpy is still not clicking with me. Of all the Raleigh Sports I've owned, it's been the one that I've had the hardest time clicking with (finding it's mojo?). There's something about the lack of pump pegs, that flat brake bridge off the Twenty, the weird chainguard angle, the bulbous fender stays, and that casket for a rear reflector with no white tail that just seems to make it feel more like a replica of a Raleigh Sports than a Raleigh Sports. I think it's also why I don't have that much of a problem turning its originality upside down. I'm really tempted to pull the FW that's never worked and do some crazy modern something-or-other back there. Heck, these later models do not even need to have their dropouts filed.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...611faad277.jpg

The new Sturmey hub has been unlaced and is ready for transplant:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...29c59ad548.jpg

And thanks again to RHM for these:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...78fcd47bb5.jpg


-Kurt

noglider 10-01-18 08:12 AM

To be frank, I never liked the way a Twenty rides. Maybe if I tried one with a proper headset, it would be different. I can't put my finger on it. But you may like it, and even if you don't, it will be fine for your purpose.

Twentys and Sportses are common enough that you don't have to feel bad about drewing them in any way. @rhm has ideas about Twentys. He told me to add rake to my fork, and I did so with an incomplete fork gauge, so I'm not sure how well I succeeded, if at all. I did get it to track straight, so there's that.


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