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-   -   Catch all Professional Cycling Chat (Possible Spoilers) (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=973245)

Grumpy McTrumpy 07-17-15 08:37 AM

as if on cue....

— The fastest speed was 109.08 kph (68.2 mph) by Lars Boom (Astana) at the 144-kilometer mark of stage 3.
Read more at Dimension Data: The Tour's first 11 stages in numbers - VeloNews.com

Personally, I am betting this is a slight GPS error. (This is based on my glances at other riders' Strava files at the same point of that stage. LTD actually had 71mph in a highly dubious spike)

This sort of thing will just add more fuel to the fire of speed/grade inflation.

Doge 07-17-15 09:31 AM


Originally Posted by grolby (Post 17988017)
...The rules don't come from nowhere, they don't exist for arbitrary reasons.

You seem to be saying that people wouldn't care if it was allowed within the rules.

The rule may have a reason, the enforcement is arbitrary, therefore it is not a level playing field, some get unfair advantages ... etc.

Froome has used banned PEDs (prednisoione) in races as many others do legally. (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/repo...proval-process)

UCI issues piles of TUEs allowing some riders to benefit from drugs - while others can't. TUEs are also to be kept secret.

In the scope of not doing things that are illegal in the society - yes, if it wasn't against the rules and also not against the laws - people would not care. I used to TT using cafeene and Aspirin. Some guys used other OTC drugs. No one cared. That these legal OTC drugs could kill you (there was a caffeine death last year) is a fact of life like cars can kill you or cornering too fast can kill you.
I posted above I was not discussing sport rule breaking that are also illegal acts - the scope is legal use of PED the are only against the competition rules, or UCI rules. Allow the municipal/state authorities to deal with laws.

To the driving: A speeding ticket in the US and a ticket in Germany are both that a law was broken. But to get that ticket, it is quite different - in CA at least on a clear day, you were likely going at least 10 over the freeway speed, in Germany less than that. The guys at Chico SR got flats and paced behind cars to get bact to the pack and the officials allowed it. The guys in the TdF got penalized for doing the same.

globecanvas 07-17-15 09:33 AM

Hey, is anybody watching the Tour? That was a great finish!

Ygduf 07-17-15 09:39 AM


Originally Posted by mattm (Post 17987275)
jfc.

is anyone talking about the actual race anymore or just talking past each other w/ an argument stream that's about as useful as religious arguments.

I was entertained by the stage today - putting froome under a bit of pressure was neat to see.

I also enjoyed the stage. The guys finishing 1x1 and killing themselves to hold off the larger chase.

*yesterday's stage

Grumpy McTrumpy 07-17-15 09:40 AM

Great dig by GvA. Gotta feel for Sagan. Just cannot seem to convert number 2 to number 1.

grolby 07-17-15 09:50 AM

Hell of an exciting finish today. The only question was, who's going to get second??


Originally Posted by Doge (Post 17988211)
The rule may have a reason, the enforcement is arbitrary, therefore it is not a level playing field, some get unfair advantages ... etc.

Froome has used banned PEDs (prednisoione) in races as many others do legally. (Report: WADA angry with UCI over flawed TUE approval process | Cyclingnews.com)

UCI issues piles of TUEs allowing some riders to benefit from drugs - while others can't. TUEs are also to be kept secret.

In the scope of not doing things that are illegal in the society - yes, if it wasn't against the rules and also not against the laws - people would not care.

Uneven or weak enforcement is not a good argument that rules are arbitrary or useless. As for your stated belief that people only care about things that are against the law, I think that's just facile. There's no sense even arguing against that position. It's transparently false.

Ygduf 07-17-15 09:54 AM

itt: lexicographers palavering

Doge 07-17-15 09:59 AM

I didn't state that.

Originally Posted by grolby (Post 17988268)
...is not a good argument that rules are arbitrary or useless.

I stated

Originally Posted by Doge (Post 17988211)
... the enforcement is arbitrary, therefore it is not a level playing field, some get unfair advantages ... etc.


globecanvas 07-17-15 10:15 AM


Originally Posted by Grumpy McTrumpy (Post 17988237)
Great dig by GvA.


I really enjoyed that stage. There was a lot of shouting at the TV. Great effort by the break, holding on that long after playing attacking games in the last 20k. Unbelievable grind to the finish by Van Avermaet. Sagan really looked like he thought he could come around right up until he couldn't. I even enjoyed Kirby's call of the finish on eurosport. I thought he was about to rupture his spleen.

echappist 07-17-15 10:16 AM


Originally Posted by grolby (Post 17988268)
Hell of an exciting finish today. The only question was, who's going to get second??



Uneven or weak enforcement is not a good argument that rules are arbitrary or useless. As for your stated belief that people only care about things that are against the law, I think that's just facile. There's no sense even arguing against that position. It's transparently false.

would you say the following to yourself?

Originally Posted by grolby (Post 17980246)
Chill, bro.


echappist 07-17-15 10:17 AM


Originally Posted by globecanvas (Post 17988375)
I really enjoyed that stage. There was a lot of shouting at the TV. Great effort by the break, holding on that long after playing attacking games in the last 20k. Unbelievable grind to the finish by Van Avermaet. Sagan really looked like he thought he could come around right up until he couldn't. I even enjoyed Harmon's call of the finish on eurosport. I thought he was about to rupture his spleen.

when Sagan had to sit down after catching GvA's wheel, you could tell that he probably didn't have it. Had he had anything left in the tank, he'd have countered.

Funny enough, second time GvA beat Sagan in an uphill sprint this year

globecanvas 07-17-15 10:21 AM

"It’s not bad luck," he [Sagan] said. "It was mistake because I was waiting for too long. I was pushing out of the saddle and then I came to his Van Avermaet’s wheel and I sat down. That was my mistake because I needed to carry on pushing so that I could win. But it was my mistake and I’m pissed now."

Tour de France 2015: Stage 13 Results | Cyclingnews.com

hack 07-17-15 10:29 AM


Originally Posted by Grumpy McTrumpy (Post 17988237)
Great dig by GvA. Gotta feel for Sagan. Just cannot seem to convert number 2 to number 1.

I thought Sagan was going to blast past GvA at the end. It looked liked he motored across the gap and camped waiting to strike. Then he never struck. Good win by GvA, but I was rooting for the break on that one.

grolby 07-17-15 11:04 AM


Originally Posted by Doge (Post 17988308)
I didn't state that.

Apologies, then. I suppose I just don't see what you are arguing. That because enforcement is imperfect that the rules are no good? That was my interpretation. I don't think you're going to get a lot of pushback on the contention that enforcement is haphazard and unfair. I think that's a case that enforcement should be better, though.


Originally Posted by echappist (Post 17988379)
would you say the following to yourself?

Nah, I'm good, thanks.

himespau 07-17-15 11:25 AM


Originally Posted by Doge (Post 17985115)
I mentioned the aero bars. There are lots of parts to be considered. Hair flowing? It was in pony tail and a smaller cross sectional area than an aero helmet - with edges that catch the wind.
Its not clear to me that was all good for 58 seconds.
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=464751http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=464752

I'd forgotten about that thing. It totally reminds me of one of those knitted caps rasta dudes wear to cover their dreads.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...kL._SX342_.jpg(minus the brim of course)

Duke of Kent 07-17-15 12:34 PM

On the subject of doping, SKY, the rules, etc.:

Ketones: Controversial new energy drink could be next big thing in cycling - Cycling Weekly

When SKY says they have the best nutritionists in the world, what they really mean is that they have chemists that are willing to go outside the box. If you or I used fat burners from GNC and got piss tested at an NRC race, we'd get popped for two years. SKY simply bends the rules and away they go.

Ygduf 07-17-15 12:41 PM


Originally Posted by Duke of Kent (Post 17988923)
On the subject of doping, SKY, the rules, etc.:

super interesting.

I also thought about stuff like Robotic Red Blood Cells To Vastly Expand Human Capabilities - Industry Tap

TheKillerPenguin 07-17-15 12:44 PM

I think I remember Hamilton's book mentioning some teams using synthetic RBCs back in the early 2000s.

globecanvas 07-17-15 12:58 PM


Originally Posted by Duke of Kent (Post 17988923)
On the subject of doping, SKY, the rules, etc.:

Ketones: Controversial new energy drink could be next big thing in cycling - Cycling Weekly

When SKY says they have the best nutritionists in the world, what they really mean is that they have chemists that are willing to go outside the box. If you or I used fat burners from GNC and got piss tested at an NRC race, we'd get popped for two years. SKY simply bends the rules and away they go.


It sounds like the doctor who made up the $3000 per liter magic drink is beside himself wanting to say that Sky is on the stuff but legally can't quite say it.
"There are professional cycling teams and world famous professional cyclists in those teams, or in that team, who have used ketones for significant internationally famous events, which they’ve won"

TheKillerPenguin 07-17-15 01:07 PM

I've heard of ketones and their benefits, but only because my GF is on a high fat diet and monitors her ketone levels daily. Apparently they're a thing and for some people they work really well.

furiousferret 07-17-15 01:31 PM

I dunno how you guys get all this in....between sleep (8 hrs), work (11 hrs including prep) and training (2-3 hrs) there isn't much time for much else.

gsteinb 07-17-15 01:33 PM

Question: how does a guy who posts on a cycling forum all day get a girlfriend?

furiousferret 07-17-15 01:36 PM


Originally Posted by gsteinb (Post 17989144)
Question: how does a guy who posts on a cycling forum all day get a girlfriend?

keep tabs open for farmersonly.com and craigslist.

Doge 07-17-15 01:50 PM


Originally Posted by grolby (Post 17988568)
Apologies, then. I suppose I just don't see what you are arguing.

In professional sports only make rules you can enforce.
Otherwise only the rule breakers benefit.

It is not fair to leave it to personal self control, ethics, morals because those that do will not win when those that don't are not stopped.
For this reason I put rule following 100% on the rule makers. Professional athletes are there to win - that is their job. If they are not willing to do whatever they can get away with to win - they are not winning.

Is that a sad comment - yes. Do I want my kids in professional sports - no. But that is, the way it is and until we put the burden of control on the rule makers and not the athletes it will never be fixed.

gsteinb 07-17-15 01:57 PM

The idea that there is some line named professional where this can be ok and done other side where it isn't is naive. The 1s who want to be pro will still need to dope. And if course the twos wanting to be a 1. That proposal would pull the lid off a box they would be disastrous. Not to mention this stuff is illegal. At some point the authories just get involved. They don't care about fairness. Only arrests.


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