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-   -   On being SEEN - NOTICED- LOOK! (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=1177134)

yeahok 07-01-19 11:22 AM

On being SEEN - NOTICED- LOOK!
 
In recent years, there has been an increase in pedestrian fatalities... It is preventable... Folks wear dark clothes and wander onto the road and get hit. They presume if they can see a car, the car can see them. When ever this happens it prompts who was legal and who wasn't banter... which is like beating a dead horse.

Anyone who bikes has had a close call-

What have you personally done to be seen on the road.

I noticed some bikes when sold do not come with reflectors. I have added a number of reflectors to my bike. At times I use a light. Somehow I dont think it is enough.

Adding reflectors is an easy way to be seen abit more.

This is serious. Even if one is legally correct, the laws of physics can kill- so - have you taken measures to be seen?

rumrunn6 07-01-19 11:27 AM

legal reflectors, hi-viz clothing, incl. helmet & strobes front & rear

yeahok 07-01-19 11:59 AM


Originally Posted by rumrunn6 (Post 21005905)
legal reflectors, hi-viz clothing, incl. helmet & strobes front & rear

I had not considered the strobes yet.

livedarklions 07-01-19 12:03 PM


Originally Posted by yeahok (Post 21005966)
I had not considered the strobes yet.

I'm not a fan, as a driver or a rider. The strobing just makes it harder to judge the bike's speed, location and direction. A slower blink rate has the same effect of attracting attention, but doesn't have the disorienting effect.

CliffordK 07-01-19 12:12 PM

Reflectors don't do much during the day.
I'm a fan of lights at night, and don't use bike reflectors.

However, retroreflectorized clothing may well help, and is much larger than those puny bike reflectors. Perhaps look at occupational safety shops. Safety vests, and high-vis shirts with reflector stripes.

yeahok 07-01-19 12:30 PM


Originally Posted by livedarklions (Post 21005974)
I'm not a fan, as a driver or a rider. The strobing just makes it harder to judge the bike's speed, location and direction. A slower blink rate has the same effect of attracting attention, but doesn't have the disorienting effect.

I sort of dont like the strobe light idea. BUT- I am open to ideas

Moe Zhoost 07-01-19 12:31 PM


Originally Posted by livedarklions (Post 21005974)
I'm not a fan, as a driver or a rider. The strobing just makes it harder to judge the bike's speed, location and direction.

Research supports this. While the intensity of a blinking light is perceived to be higher by observers so it is true that they are more conspicuous, but at a cost. Solid lights allowed for observers to better judge the important stuff. If you want a motorist to know that you are somewhere in their sight line, then strobe. If you want a motorist to know where you are as well as your travel vector, consider running solid lights. Improve on this by running 2 or more lights with some spread between them.

yeahok 07-01-19 12:32 PM

CK, a red reflector on back spokes, yellow on front- is better than none what so ever on the bike, in my humble opinion.

njkayaker 07-01-19 12:46 PM


Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost (Post 21006025)
Research supports this. While the intensity of a blinking light is perceived to be higher by observers so it is true that they are more conspicuous, but at a cost. Solid lights allowed for observers to better judge the important stuff. If you want a motorist to know that you are somewhere in their sight line, then strobe. If you want a motorist to know where you are as well as your travel vector, consider running solid lights. Improve on this by running 2 or more lights with some spread between them.

"Research supports this" but that research might not be relevant to the use being discussed.

The general case is where a vehicle is coming up to a cyclist from behind. The "travel vector" in that case is pretty-much a stationary object in front of them.

The idea of flashing lights is to be noticeable (conspicuous) from a longer distance. Flashing lights are much more noticeable than solid lights of similar size and power).

If the motorist can recognize the object as a cyclist, they can make reasonable estimates of speed and direction.

By the time they need to pass, the headlights should be letting the motorists deal with "travel vectors".

njkayaker 07-01-19 12:53 PM


Originally Posted by yeahok (Post 21006019)
I sort of dont like the strobe light idea. BUT- I am open to ideas

Flashing lights are more noticeable (conspicuous) from a much longer distance. The longer time you give a motorist to notice you, the better. From a distance, solid lights can be confused with other things.

Reflective clothing helps relatively-close up (in the wash of headlights) where a light doesn't really do much (because the car is too close).


Originally Posted by yeahok (Post 21006026)
CK, a red reflector on back spokes, yellow on front- is better than none what so ever on the bike, in my humble opinion.

That's sort of obvious, isn't it?

njkayaker 07-01-19 12:59 PM


Originally Posted by livedarklions (Post 21005974)
I'm not a fan, as a driver or a rider. The strobing just makes it harder to judge the bike's speed, location and direction. A slower blink rate has the same effect of attracting attention, but doesn't have the disorienting effect.

At long distance, flashing lights can be noticed at a much farther distance. When coming up from behind, the cyclist is, effectively, a stationary object. The same light not flashing wouldn't really provide any more information.

The first goal is to be conspicuous at a longer distance.

If the object is crossing, a slower blink rate makes determining speed and direction harder.

79pmooney 07-01-19 01:03 PM

Single best thing you can wear - a light attached to your leg. Nothing else goes up and down. Nothing. It attracts real attention. I used just the rather miserable French Wonderlights and a reflecting vest for years and had very few issues with cars. I no longer do because I have had so many crash injuries, am skinny and have been wearing those lights banging against my leg on fix gear descents so long that I can no longer wear much on my legs comfortably but if the right solution comes along, I'll get back on board. (One of the issues with super bright strobes and the like is pissing motorists off. I for one as a driver do not like lights so bright I lose any semblance of night vision.)

CliffordK 07-01-19 01:04 PM


Originally Posted by yeahok (Post 21006026)
CK, a red reflector on back spokes, yellow on front- is better than none what so ever on the bike, in my humble opinion.

A spoke reflector... maybe. Many of the headlights/taillights seem to forget side visibility.

Brands of tires that come with reflectors are also quite noticeable... I don't understand why reflector strips aren't standard on all tires, or at least all commuter/training tires.

A few weeks ago I noticed a bike with spoke lights, but I don't believe front or rear lights. Nonetheless, it had quite good 360 visibility.

CliffordK 07-01-19 01:19 PM


Originally Posted by 79pmooney (Post 21006097)
Single best thing you can wear - a light attached to your leg. Nothing else goes up and down. Nothing. It attracts real attention. I used just the rather miserable French Wonderlights and a reflecting vest for years and had very few issues with cars. I no longer do because I have had so many crash injuries, am skinny and have been wearing those lights banging against my leg on fix gear descents so long that I can no longer wear much on my legs comfortably but if the right solution comes along, I'll get back on board. (One of the issues with super bright strobes and the like is pissing motorists off. I for one as a driver do not like lights so bright I lose any semblance of night vision.)

I've used these NightRunner lights off and on. Rechargeable. Easy to use. I've gotten a lot of comments about them.

https://www.nighttechgear.com/

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/08...g?v=1552834862

Unfortunately they don't cover the rear very well.

For rear lighting, there are the spur lights (I bought a Chinese clone with USB charging).

https://www.nathansports.com/product...led-foot-light

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/00...g?v=1556652242

The problems with the spurs is that they require shoes with heels. And, inevitably my bike shoes have inadequate heels, so I've been reluctant to use them on the shoes. They do clip onto the ankles reasonably well, but are uncomfortable.

These strap lights might be worth trying.

https://www.rei.com/product/769617/p...bike-brt-strap

https://www.rei.com/media/aa394edd-d...0?size=784x588

I haven't used them. But, I had a "Chinese" direct version a while ago that only lasted for a couple of months before disintegrating.

Those Planet Bike/REI lights appear to have replaceable batteries, not USB. Whew, batteries are my Achilles heal. :P

In general, for leg lights, I never use them on flash mode. My belief is that movement is adequate to make them visible.

Leisesturm 07-01-19 01:22 PM

I will eat a delicate bodypart raw and without hot sauce if it is proven that the first poster to mention strobes was not referring to the common bicycle flasher (Strobus rectificus) by its Latin binomial. No commonly available cycling head or tail lights 'strobe', they 'flash', and they flash at rates accepted by medical experts to be minimally affecting of epileptic individuals. Get over it. Epilepsy as a reason for not flashing is a ship that has sailed. Your ticket is non-refundable. May as well use the thing. It may even save your life someday. But probably not. Wanna know what is even better for safety than decking yourself out like a First Responder? Spatial Awareness. I know you've heard of it. It's a thing. And a useful thing at that.

yeahok 07-01-19 01:45 PM


Originally Posted by njkayaker (Post 21006074)
Flashing lights are more noticeable (conspicuous) from a much longer distance. The longer time you give a motorist to notice you, the better. From a distance, solid lights can be confused with other things.

Reflective clothing helps relatively-close up (in the wash of headlights) where a light doesn't really do much (because the car is too close).


That's sort of obvious, isn't it?

Per haps- but manufacturers dont bother to include reflectors anymore.

livedarklions 07-01-19 01:50 PM


Originally Posted by njkayaker (Post 21006060)
"Research supports this" but that research might not be relevant to the use being discussed.

The general case is where a vehicle is coming up to a cyclist from behind. The "travel vector" in that case is pretty-much a stationary object in front of them.

The idea of flashing lights is to be noticeable (conspicuous) from a longer distance. Flashing lights are much more noticeable than solid lights of similar size and power).

If the motorist can recognize the object as a cyclist, they can make reasonable estimates of speed and direction.

By the time they need to pass, the headlights should be letting the motorists deal with "travel vectors".

Why is it car coming from behind? Rear lights are red, usually by law.
Research doesn't support flashing RED lights being more visible. Not sure why, and it seems counter-intuitive.

rseeker 07-01-19 01:52 PM

Mirrors (so I can see): one on the end of the handlebar plus one on the helmet.

Reflectors: one big one over the fork bridge, a smaller one on the handlebars, and two red ones on the back of the seatpost. Two on each pedal. I should reinstall the two that came on the spokes.

Lighting: headlight on the handlebars that I run flashing during the day and solid to see with at night. I'm getting ready to upgrade my headlight and use the one I have now for flashing only. A red one that I run flashing on the back of my seatpost. On my helmet, two flashlights mounted side-by-side on top; these I run at low power as spot lights to shine where I'm looking, and being side-by-side gives me a nice wide binocular region.

Clothing: a reflective vest that goes over my shirt or rain shell. (I bought one vest then found four over time along the highway, probably blown out of work trucks. I think I have enough now to make a reflective pack cover.) On each ankle, a wrap-around band.

When I decide on a rack, I'll put a reflector and a flashing red on the back and a solid wide-angle red on each side, and maybe some reflective strips to. I can't bring myself to put adhesive strips on the frame.

I think tires with a reflective stripe are a great idea, but I can't bring myself to do that yet either. Vanity/aesthetics. But if I were commuting instead of riding for health and fitness then I definitely would.

I hope that helps.

livedarklions 07-01-19 01:56 PM


Originally Posted by njkayaker (Post 21006089)
At long distance, flashing lights can be noticed at a much farther distance. When coming up from behind, the cyclist is, effectively, a stationary object. The same light not flashing wouldn't really provide any more information.

The first goal is to be conspicuous at a longer distance.

If the object is crossing, a slower blink rate makes determining speed and direction harder.

The bright flashing lights that can be seen at a distance are white, and in the front of the bike. Red lights just aren't that visible at distance. This is a question of head-to-head visibility.

The studies supporting the use of strobes on the roads really concern snow plows--there is nothing that indicates they make bike riding safer.

njkayaker 07-01-19 02:00 PM


Originally Posted by livedarklions (Post 21006184)
Why is it car coming from behind? Rear lights are red, usually by law.

???

Cars coming up from behind cyclists is common, isn't it?


Originally Posted by livedarklions (Post 21006184)
Research doesn't support flashing RED lights being more visible. Not sure why, and it seems counter-intuitive.

What "research"? Flashing red lights are common on aerials, towers, airplanes. All sorts of things.


Originally Posted by livedarklions (Post 21006198)
The bright flashing lights that can be seen at a distance are white, and in the front of the bike.

Not just those.


Originally Posted by livedarklions (Post 21006198)
Red lights just aren't that visible at distance. This is a question of head-to-head visibility.

??? "head to head"?? Compared to white lights?

You can't legally use white lights in the rear so flashing white lights being "better" is irrelevant.

There are ample examples of flashing red lights being used as long distance markers.


Originally Posted by livedarklions (Post 21006198)
The studies supporting the use of strobes on the roads really concern snow plows--there is nothing that indicates they make bike riding safer.

There are actually few studies that show anything "makes biking safer". The data for that is lacking.

Kevin R 07-01-19 02:03 PM

I use Bontrager Ion Pro at the front and Flare RT at the rear both can strobe and have a claimed visibility from 2 Km out. I bought these for daylight riding visibility.

They claim they worked with university researchers when developing these lights to maximize visibility; and you can check out the GCN review .

njkayaker 07-01-19 02:08 PM


Originally Posted by yeahok (Post 21006171)
Per haps- but manufacturers dont bother to include reflectors anymore.

In the US, bicycles are required to be sold with reflectors.

=================

Keep in mind that reflectors work only with headlights.

A light (especially flashing) will be noticeable from a longer distance and doesn't rely on headlights.

rseeker 07-01-19 02:11 PM


Originally Posted by njkayaker (Post 21006227)
In the US, bicycles are required to be sold with reflectors.

The law in my state requires you to use them, at least one front and one rear.

I-Like-To-Bike 07-01-19 02:53 PM


Originally Posted by yeahok (Post 21006171)
Per haps- but manufacturers dont bother to include reflectors anymore.

Front and rear reflectors are required for new bicycles sold in the U.S.A. by law. except for track bicycles. https://www.cpsc.gov/Business--Manuf...e-Requirements

Leisesturm 07-01-19 02:56 PM


Originally Posted by njkayaker (Post 21006208)
???

What "research"? Flashing red lights are common on aerials, towers, airplanes. All sorts of things.

Kudos. You were very patient with him. More so than I would have been. Why are some cyclists so contrary? I mean ... even if I read somewhere that red flashers blah, blah ... criminy, I go out at night! I've been in cars at night! I SEE for myself that red flashers trump anything else that is lit at night except another red flasher. Or a white flasher. Bottom line: flashing gets more attention than solid. Its not debatable. And, I could be wrong about it but I think Oregon requires f/r flashers to be legal, so regardless of how effective or not one thinks they are, it's a moot point. And red it better be if its the rear one.


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