Increased ability to burn fat instead of carbs = increased FTP?
I could have sworn I read something like this in an article or a book, but I can't remember where it is from.
Does anyone have a citation for this factoid? I think it means that if you increase the power at which you can burn fat instead of carbs, your FTP will also go up. |
You're not saying it right.
|
I think he is saying it right.
If you look at FTP as wHr of power, increasing mitochondrial density and ability to metabolize fat with O2 means you can produce more watts for the hour. Don't think there's a way to really increase liver glycogen or glycogen burn rate. @echappist should set us all straight. |
Base training (those long, lower intensity rides just at/under aerobic threshold aka ventilatory threshold 1) increases mitochondrial density. More mitochondria = more fat burning capacity. But the mitochondria are also key to lactate clearance, which has a big effect on FTP/MLSS. I first read about this in Thomas Chapple's Base Building for Cyclists, but I'm sure it's been discussed elsewhere.
I can definitely say that long steady Z2 rides during the base season have helped increase my FTP. |
Originally Posted by jsk
(Post 20330969)
Base training (those long, lower intensity rides just at/under aerobic threshold aka ventilatory threshold 1) increases mitochondrial density. More mitochondria = more fat burning capacity. But the mitochondria are also key to lactate clearance, which has a big effect on FTP/MLSS. I first read about this in Thomas Chapple's Base Building for Cyclists, but I'm sure it's been discussed elsewhere.
I can definitely say that long steady Z2 rides during the base season have helped increase my FTP. Should you not do much too Z2 base after some point (build period?)? |
Originally Posted by Ygduf
(Post 20330862)
I think he is saying it right.
If you look at FTP as wHr of power, increasing mitochondrial density and ability to metabolize fat with O2 means you can produce more watts for the hour. Don't think there's a way to really increase liver glycogen or glycogen burn rate. @echappist should set us all straight. |
Originally Posted by baribari
(Post 20331749)
I was thinking maybe the idea was that burning fat took less O2 per watt generated. I might be totally off, though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respir...exchange_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_quotient High FatMax improves long endurance much more than FTP. |
The only thing that's increased my ftp is stuff above ftp.
Last year I built up to doing 3 hours of sweetspot at 89% ftp and that didn't help, but doing 5-6 min repeats at 115-118% helped tremendously. Could be highly dependent on each person and their previous training, however. And there's typically more than one way to do many things. I very rarely do any type of z2 rides over an hour, so the traditional "base" of 3-5 hours at z2 is a total waste for me, and boring as hell anyway, so no way I even bother with it at this point in my life. |
Originally Posted by Enthalpic
(Post 20331784)
No, fats require more oxygen - but unless you are near VO2max oxygen delivery isn't really limiting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respir...exchange_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_quotient High FatMax improves long endurance much more than FTP. |
Originally Posted by rubiksoval
(Post 20331826)
The only thing that's increased my ftp is stuff above ftp.
Last year I built up to doing 3 hours of sweetspot at 89% ftp and that didn't help, but doing 5-6 min repeats at 115-118% helped tremendously. Could be highly dependent on each person and their previous training, however. And there's typically more than one way to do many things. I very rarely do any type of z2 rides over an hour, so the traditional "base" of 3-5 hours at z2 is a total waste for me, and boring as hell anyway, so no way I even bother with it at this point in my life. I could have sworn that cranking up the difficulty of my Zwift workouts, which put me at higher percentages of FTP, had almost overnight results. |
I think the answer depends on how you go about increasing the fat adaption, if you are using diet for say keto or carb depletion then the fat adaption likely comes at the expense of glycogen dependant power production. If you are increasing fat adaption using long base or intermittent fasting rides during base then the % contribution of fat could potential increase your FTP, the percentage contribution at FTP is likely <10% so its probably not going to make much of difference, where it makes a bigger difference is in glycogen sparing in the Z2 range.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...765d0978e6.png |
Originally Posted by baribari
(Post 20331745)
Hmm. I would have thought sweet spot training would have a bigger affect, hour per hour, if only because maintaining Z2 for a long time is relatively easy, but maintaining ~95% of FTP is relatively hard for more than a few minutes...
Should you not do much too Z2 base after some point (build period?)? |
Originally Posted by baribari
(Post 20331745)
Hmm. I would have thought sweet spot training would have a bigger affect, hour per hour, if only because maintaining Z2 for a long time is relatively easy, but maintaining ~95% of FTP is relatively hard for more than a few minutes...
|
Originally Posted by mattm
(Post 20347250)
Read the Training Bible.
It seems to me that most of the book is about peaking and periodiziation, which isn't relevant to me since I don't race yet (still in training, trying to learn how to suffer). What parts are most useful if you just want to get fast as fast as possible? |
Originally Posted by baribari
(Post 20331829)
Is the FTP of a trained athlete a relatively high percentage of VO2 max, or a relatively low percentage? Or am I thinking of something else entirely? Like VO2 max being a relatively high percentage of max power.
As an example, a sweet spot workout might be 4 x 12 minutes at 95-98% FTP, whereas a VO2 max workout might be 6 x 3 minutes @ 120% FTP. A well trained athlete should find both interval sessions equally challenging. If you lack muscle endurance, you'll find the sweet spot workouts to be more challenging. If you lack the lungs, you'll find the VO2 max workout to be more challenging. |
Originally Posted by baribari
(Post 20348028)
I don't race yet (still in training, trying to learn how to suffer).
What parts are most useful if you just want to get fast as fast as possible? |
Originally Posted by rubiksoval
(Post 20331826)
The only thing that's increased my ftp is stuff above ftp.
Last year I built up to doing 3 hours of sweetspot at 89% ftp and that didn't help, but doing 5-6 min repeats at 115-118% helped tremendously. Could be highly dependent on each person and their previous training, however. And there's typically more than one way to do many things. I very rarely do any type of z2 rides over an hour, so the traditional "base" of 3-5 hours at z2 is a total waste for me, and boring as hell anyway, so no way I even bother with it at this point in my life. |
Originally Posted by colombo357
(Post 20352412)
Everyone's different, but in your case as a CAT 1, I think you're the exception rather than the rule.
|
Originally Posted by baribari
(Post 20348028)
I have a copy of the 4th edition but I have found it kind of hard to read.... plus it's really thick.
It seems to me that most of the book is about peaking and periodiziation, which isn't relevant to me since I don't race yet (still in training, trying to learn how to suffer). What parts are most useful if you just want to get fast as fast as possible? |
Originally Posted by KDTX
(Post 20352401)
Forget get the book,.....your quickest way of learning how to suffer is entering a race. Do 3 crits and then pop open the book, it will make more sense and give you a better understanding of what your homework needs to be.
OTOH, there were no ability level groups, and there were collegiate racers there, so it was the equivalent of doing a Cat 1/2/3 race as Cat 5.....with 70 pounds of excess weight. I weigh less now.... but I'm going to try something flat first. |
Originally Posted by mattm
(Post 20352818)
Read the section(s) on Nutrition, one or two chapters at most.
Man, I wish there were shortcuts for this stuff!! Let me know if you find any. |
Some of you guys need an account over on the Slowtwitch triathlon forums. This would go over well over there.
Andy Coggan frequents the forums along with a few other brainiac types. |
Originally Posted by burnthesheep
(Post 20353629)
Andy Coggan frequents the forums along with a few other brainiac types. |
Originally Posted by rubiksoval
(Post 20352476)
I'd say it's more likely an issue of doing something until it doesnt work anymore, and then doing something different. Alternate the stimulus to force the body to keep adapting. Same principles apply to cat 5s, too.
Out of curiosity, are you a good 40K TT rider? I can imagine that a CAT1 who can hold 100% FTP for nearly an hour will find subthreshold intervals to be much easier than, say, someone like myself. |
Originally Posted by colombo357
(Post 20354222)
I'd agree with that.
Out of curiosity, are you a good 40K TT rider? I can imagine that a CAT1 who can hold 100% FTP for nearly an hour will find subthreshold intervals to be much easier than, say, someone like myself. no. hurt is hurt. that phrase "it never get's easier you just get faster" is a lot of bull**** in regards to racing, but it's spot on for intervals. |
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