Any way to get better steering response?
 

I ride a dual sport bike with 700x40c tires and was wondering if there was a way to get twitchier steering? It feels like when I go to counter-steer, there is a lag time in between pushing the bars and the bike reacting. I'm used to riding a ninja 250 motorcycle and whenever there is a tiny bit of bar input, the motorcycle counter-steers instantly. I have not ridden a road bike so I can't say if it's just my bike, or if it's the nature of bikes in general? So is there a way to get nice twitchy steering on a dual sport, or is it the nature of the bike? Lack of steering response (and my lack of bicycle riding skill) actually caused me to crash on gravel because I was expecting to bike to react quicker than it did. Thanks!

Ride a drop bar road bike with a very short wheelbase? A very steep headtube? Short stem?

What is a dual sport bike?

Oh I see, that is more of a hybrid with mountain bike style front suspension. I imagine that is going to feel very sluggish until you replace the bike with a road bike of some sort. Maybe a very short stem but the head tube angle seems really slack on that bike.

Thanks for the response. Sorry if I was misleading, but I won't be "replacing the bike with a road bike." I have absolutely no desire to ride a performance oriented road bike.... ever. Dual sport bikes are the only bikes I'm buying from now on as they fit my riding style to a tee. I was simply wondering if a different fork or different tires could tighten up the steering on the bike I already have. If not, so be it. I'll learn how to adapt to the steering lag and I'll keep the performance riding to my motorcycle. Thanks

I'm certainly no expert on the physics of turning a bike, but I think I can make a few observations.

A motorcycle has a much lower center of gravity as well as much wider tires and higher weight, making turning much different than on a bike. It's very easy to slide out on a bike by trying to turn too small a radius due to the high center of gravity, small tire contact patch and lower weight holding the bike to the ground.

Most people don't consciously counter-steer, in fact it's done even when riding straight ahead to a much smaller degree. That being said, there is a technique that enables one to make a very quick turn by forcing a quick counter-steer. It's intended for emergencies but I suppose you could use it more often if you desire Google instant turn.

A slightly smaller section tire will probably increase responsiveness, though of course that has to be weighed against the shock absorption of a larger tire. A rigid fork would improve things also, but if you want "dual-sport," that is off-road capability, you are again negatively affecting another aspect of the bike that you may want to keep.

This is a "dual sport": http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=339984 A few years back, bike dealers started calling hybrid bikes "dual sports" b/c "hybrid" carried some pretty lame connotations by then. Of course, it'll probably only take a few years for the term "dual sport bike" to be a marketing kiss of death.

Nothing wrong with the bikes; just a poor choice of nomenclature.

Best way to improve your bikes handling, IMO, would be to fit it with a rigid fork. Try to find one with an ATC measurement similar to the current fork's sagged ATC, but if you go down a few mm, that'll steepen the head angle and theoretically quicken the steering.

Plus, of course, it'll help that you'll be steering with a lighter, stiffer fork, too.

hth

Ironically, everything you can do to gain faster steering response will push the bike further and further from a "dual sport" bike. A rigid fork and skinnier tires will put you only a few steps away from a flat bar road bike, but you will get your faster steering response.

FWIW, my road bike is a very race-oriented frame and the steering on it makes my cyclocross/commuter bike steering feel downright sluggish. It always takes a bit for me to get used to it as I put many more miles on the commuter.

Clearly it does not suit your riding style to a tee. It steers like a dog, and you don't like that.

Your problem isn't with the bicycle but with the way that you are riding it. A bicycle isn't a motorcycle. The countersteering on a bicycle is very subtle and is usually done with very little thought on the rider's part. If the bars moved a quarter of an inch during a turn above walking speed it would be a lot. If you are trying to countersteer consciously... and a lot...you are actively putting a lag into the steering. At any kind of speed, lean into the corner and let the bicycle do the rest...it's that subtle.

I would agree that the OP is probably doing it wrong. But your statement is ridiculous.

I don't know how to ride a motorcycle but I do know how to ride a bike. You steer a bike with your butt, not your hands. Focus on leaning the bike rather than countersteering.

Bicycles like any single tracked vehicle counter-steer to initiate lean in for a turn.
It's so subtle on a bicycle it's done before most riders notice, "instantly".

If you were expecting a certain response and got something else you need to put miles/hours on the machine in a variety of conditions/speeds to learn how it actually does handle. Messing about with hardware changes won't make it into what it is not, a Ninja.

Find a nice big flat grassy area (unless fond of crashing on gravel or tarmac) put a few water bottles ( or objects that you would not mind running into ) in a slalom pattern and practice L/R runs at various speeds using F/R brakes and generally mess about. Nothing like mild cyclo-cross to learn handling skills in a low traction crash friendly environment.

You did take the MSF Basic Rider's Class? Remember: "Look through the turn." and "The bike follows your eyes."?
Same, same.

-Bandera

This is great advice. Leaning and counter steering are essentially the same thing. When you lean right, you push the bars right and the bike turns right. Consciously counter steering can be helpful when making multiple tight turns while mountain biking.

Care to elaborate as to why what I said is ridiculous and how what Bandera says is great advice? They are essentially the same thing.

Countersteering isn't gonna delay anything. It would be more likely to make a bicycle (which as you correctly noted requires very little steering input) steer too much, too quickly.

And I did not include the part where Bandera showed some lack of understanding as to what countersteering really is in my quote.

I think that, if the OP is trying to ride his bicycle like a moto, to the point that he is deliberately/consciously trying to countersteer, then there likely is a problem. Trying to define exactly what that problem in on a forum like this is probably a difficult task... Cyco's statement may not be entirely clear, but that's understandable, given the context of this discussion. It was far from ridiculous, though.

^^^^^^He said it would delay steering. That is ridiculous.

If one slowly counter-steers (and by necessity lean or shift one's hips as well) yes it will delay the turn. One is then turning the opposite way and then back, rather than truly counter-steering. I would not be surprised if the OP is actually counter-steering twice without realizing it. As I noted before one can force an "instant" turn with a conscious counter-steer, but it needs to be very quick.

^^^^ well yeah, I assumed he was actually counter steering rather than whatever convoluted thing you just described. The fact is, any vehicle with 2 inline wheels steers by countersteering. When you lean, the bars turn slightly away from the direction you are turning. If you are doing something weird you will steer weird. But the fact remains, if you try to countersteer a bicycle like a motorcycle (even a teeny tiny motorcycle like a ZX250) you are gonna make it turn too much, too fast.

No one is talking about fork trail?

High trail causes the bike to track a straight line better. Low trail allows a more "twitchier" but responsive steering. You could try a fork with greater offset yielding a lower trail.

@Bandera, I was wrong. I misunderstood your first paragraph somehow when I first read it. You clearly understand fully what countersteering is and how it works!

What I'm saying is that he may not really be counter-steering, but rather weaving left before he turns right. Regardless, none of us is there to see what's happening and the OP has not chimed in. Again, one can consciously counter-steer a bike without turning "too fast." In fact one can turn without a counter-steer by initiating lean with a hip thrust instead.

rebel,

Thank you for re-reading, retracting being a gentleman.



-Bandera

^^^^^ Yep, I do all the time. And now I understand what you were saying. As I said, I suspect the OP is doing it wrong!

There's a tremendous difference between bicycle and MC steering properties. One of the biggest is the effect of gyroscopic precession. A motorcycles fast spinning heavy front wheel will produce a measurable tilt response when turned, but bicycle's slower turning light wheel's tilt response in negligible. The other big difference is that the bike itself has about 2-5% of the inertia of an MC, so on a bike it's about your body, not the bike.

Don't overthink bicycle steering, after a short while it becomes just about 100% instinctive. Think about your line, bring your eyes to it, and the bike will almost take care of the rest, with minimal conscious input.