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-   -   Match Sprint tactic question (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=1165125)

Relik 01-27-19 07:21 PM

Match Sprint tactic question
 
I have an apponent that would be faster than me for 5-10 seconds. i might be faster than him for 50 seconds. Do i give up or is there some way i might pull off a win?

queerpunk 01-27-19 07:49 PM

yeah there's a tatic called Kilo-ing.
You go from the gun.
With a little start line trickery, you can delay their reaction or realization about what you're doing, bust open a big gap, and force them to work for 3 whole laps.


Relik 01-27-19 08:57 PM

thanks for that advice and the video. that was pretty cool
​​​​​​. i never thought i would see an example of that actually working. but how did he get such a jump? the element of surprise i suppose. i guess most times the stronger rider jumps on the wheel of the first rider and enjoys the draft. but if it's the only shot i got then it's the one i take.

Baby Puke 01-27-19 09:08 PM

In order to make this work though, you need to have a really powerful start and high top speed already, basically be a sprinter with good 6-8 second power, then be able to hold it. If you're not already pretty explosive and fast and your opponent is, he'll just catch you and ride your wheel.

carleton 01-27-19 11:15 PM


Originally Posted by Relik (Post 20767292)
thanks for that advice and the video. that was pretty cool
​​​​​​. i never thought i would see an example of that actually working. but how did he get such a jump? the element of surprise i suppose. i guess most times the stronger rider jumps on the wheel of the first rider and enjoys the draft. but if it's the only shot i got then it's the one i take.

If the opponent of which you speak is a "pure sprinter" with high % of fast twitch fibers, the other option is to lead from the front and slowly but consistently accelerate, but don't outright jump out of the saddle. This will fool many inexperienced sprinters and lull them into accelerating past a speed where they can make a powerful jump while slowly burn their "matches" (using anaerobic power).

It may sound weird that way, but a similar dynamic is what is in play when "pure sprinters" are dropped in mass start races. Sure, a local/regional sprinter can instantaneously hit over 70kph/43mph but can he hold 60kph/37mph for 2 laps?

That tactic has worked against me by a pro roadie. I qualified faster than him and was capable of more power and top speed. From the jump he took off and I followed in his draft with plans of making an easy pass later on the home straight. But, he kept mildly accelerating in the saddle past the point where I could add anything by making a hard jump out of the saddle. I stood up and had to sit right back down. He won.

Baby Puke 01-28-19 12:46 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20767472)
If the opponent of which you speak is a "pure sprinter" with high % of fast twitch fibers, the other option is to lead from the front and slowly but consistently accelerate, but don't outright jump out of the saddle. This will fool many inexperienced sprinters and lull them into accelerating past a speed where they can make a powerful jump while slowly burn their "matches" (using anaerobic power).

It may sound weird that way, but a similar dynamic is what is in play when "pure sprinters" are dropped in mass start races. Sure, a local/regional sprinter can instantaneously hit over 70kph/43mph but can he hold 60kph/37mph for 2 laps?

That tactic has worked against me by a pro roadie. I qualified faster than him and was capable of more power and top speed. From the jump he took off and I followed in his draft with plans of making an easy pass later on the home straight. But, he kept mildly accelerating in the saddle past the point where I could add anything by making a hard jump out of the saddle. I stood up and had to sit right back down. He won.

This. Has also happened to me, and my coach at the time called it "putting your opponent to sleep". Great tactic for a roadie/enduro rider.

colnago62 01-28-19 12:51 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20767472)

It may sound weird that way, but a similar dynamic is what is in play when "pure sprinters" are dropped in mass start races. Sure, a local/regional sprinter can instantaneously hit over 70kph/43mph but can he hold 60kph/37mph for 2 laps?

That tactic has worked against me by a pro roadie. I qualified faster than him and was capable of more power and top speed. From the jump he took off and I followed in his draft with plans of making an easy pass later on the home straight. But, he kept mildly accelerating in the saddle past the point where I could add anything by making a hard jump out of the saddle. I stood up and had to sit right back down. He won.

A friend of mine, some years ago, at Masters Nationals got beat just like that. The other rider did a very good job of hiding his acceleration. My friend was so focused on his plan that he didn’t realize until too late.

ruudlaff 01-28-19 06:11 AM


Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 20767307)
In order to make this work though, you need to have a really powerful start and high top speed already, basically be a sprinter with good 6-8 second power, then be able to hold it. If you're not already pretty explosive and fast and your opponent is, he'll just catch you and ride your wheel.

Or you can catch them not paying enough attention and get a big enough gap. This was done to me in my first ever competition, the gap was big enough by the time I cottoned on that it was game over.

FinkFloyd 01-28-19 08:08 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20767472)
If the opponent of which you speak is a "pure sprinter" with high % of fast twitch fibers, the other option is to lead from the front and slowly but consistently accelerate, but don't outright jump out of the saddle. This will fool many inexperienced sprinters and lull them into accelerating past a speed where they can make a powerful jump while slowly burn their "matches" (using anaerobic power).

Is this tactic the 'razor' which has been discussed on these boards previously? I do think it's fascinating how there are many ways to skin a cat in the sprint game.

queerpunk 01-28-19 09:30 AM


Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 20767307)
In order to make this work though, you need to have a really powerful start and high top speed already, basically be a sprinter with good 6-8 second power, then be able to hold it. If you're not already pretty explosive and fast and your opponent is, he'll just catch you and ride your wheel.

yeah, you've got to shake your opponent.

there's another video, which i couldn't find, or forstemann just barely holding somebody off (hoy?) with the same tactic, but it all comes down to what happens on the start line: forstemann lines up high on the track. at the whistle, his holder holds him for a moment; his opponent rolls forward a few feet, and forstemann's holder gives him a sturdy throw.

the delay gives forstemann a few more meters to add speed and catch his opponent off guard, and as 3 laps come down to essentially a bike throw, it makes all the difference.

queerpunk 01-28-19 09:32 AM


Originally Posted by FinkFloyd (Post 20767742)
Is this tactic the 'razor' which has been discussed on these boards previously? I do think it's fascinating how there are many ways to skin a cat in the sprint game.

yes. the trick is to get people to jump, but then to beat them to the corner and force them wide, while always having just a hair more to give. works better the shorter the track, too.

carleton 01-28-19 09:37 AM


Originally Posted by FinkFloyd (Post 20767742)
Is this tactic the 'razor' which has been discussed on these boards previously? I do think it's fascinating how there are many ways to skin a cat in the sprint game.

Yes. I thought it was called “Razor-ing”. But I wasn’t sure. I’ve also heard a different technique also called a “Razor”. This technique being to let your trailing opponent start his/her pass and slowly accelerating keeping them pinned on your hip while traveling a further distance in the wind...all while winning by a razors edge.

Not sure which one is correct.

queerpunk 01-28-19 10:01 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20767877)
Not sure which one is correct.

Additional confusion comes in when you hear people who learned from Aussies refer to a "riser." Same thing? Different? Who knows, nobody can understand australians...

carleton 01-28-19 11:28 AM


Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 20767918)
Additional confusion comes in when you hear people who learned from Aussies refer to a "riser." Same thing? Different? Who knows, nobody can understand australians...

For a AUS/NZ accent, pronounce every vowel as a “short” “i”.

Try it.

topflightpro 01-28-19 12:58 PM


Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 20767918)
Who knows, nobody can understand australians...

It's from spending all that time upside down.

Baby Puke 01-28-19 05:13 PM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20767877)
This technique being to let your trailing opponent start his/her pass and slowly accelerating keeping them pinned on your hip while traveling a further distance in the wind...all while winning by a razors edge.

This is what I've understood as the razor.

Relik 01-28-19 08:51 PM

i was thinking about the razor. can they be fast paced and slow paced? I've only seen fast. I would want a fast pace to fatigue my opponent but he can keep iti slow if he wants to, can't he?

Dalai 01-29-19 02:59 AM


Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 20767918)
Who knows, nobody can understand australians...

Sentiment is the same going the other way Y'all... :lol:

taras0000 01-29-19 04:29 AM


Originally Posted by Relik (Post 20768974)
i was thinking about the razor. can they be fast paced and slow paced? I've only seen fast. I would want a fast pace to fatigue my opponent but he can keep iti slow if he wants to, can't he?

Tactics are just techniques applied to your opponent. They can be used at any speed.

queerpunk 01-29-19 08:10 AM


Originally Posted by Relik (Post 20768974)
i was thinking about the razor. can they be fast paced and slow paced? I've only seen fast. I would want a fast pace to fatigue my opponent but he can keep iti slow if he wants to, can't he?

If your opponent wants to keep it slow, and you're going fast, then the race is looking pretty good for you...

taras0000 01-29-19 01:03 PM


Originally Posted by Dalai (Post 20769209)
Sentiment is the same going the other way Y'all... :lol:

​​​​​​
If you're talking to the collective, then "all y'all" would be correct as that is the plural of "y'all". But I might be wrong because I'm just a hoser from the Great White North.

carleton 01-29-19 07:10 PM

Random fact. The word y'all's has two apostrophes...and is spelled correctly.

As in,

[Morty] Well then, y'all get your sh*t together. Get all y'all's sh*t together and put it in a backpack...all y'all's sh*t...so it’s together.

[pause]

[Morty] And if y'all gotta take it somewhere, take it somewhere, you know. Take it to the sh*t store and sell it, or put it in the sh*t museum. I don’t care what y'all do with y'all's sh*t. You just gotta get it together.

Adapted from:

Baby Puke 01-29-19 09:29 PM

Additionally, I think the "all" in "all y'all" is really just an intensifier as y'all is obviously already plural. I love that we're talking grammar here. By the way THANK YOU to everyone here for generally having excellent grammar! So many pet peeves violated daily and obliviously on social media...

taras0000 01-29-19 10:16 PM


Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 20770575)
Additionally, I think the "all" in "all y'all" is really just an intensifier as y'all is obviously already plural. I love that we're talking grammar here. By the way THANK YOU to everyone here for generally having excellent grammar! So many pet peeves violated daily and obliviously on social media...

ur welcome

Baby Puke 01-29-19 11:12 PM


Originally Posted by taras0000 (Post 20770623)
ur welcome

Doh...


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