Weight training plus cycling - what's the right combo? days on, days off etc
 

I've been cycling for 10 years now, but the first 8 of those years I wasn't very serious. A couple rides of 30 mins to an hour twice a week in the summer and fall. Then elliptical in the winter/rainy days, etc. In late summer 2017 I bought a road bike...GAME CHANGER...

I love it. I bought a Wahoo Kickr last fall to keep my training going in the off-season. I had some really good gains. My FTP last October was 216 (not very good, I'm 6'6 and weigh 191 lbs). Now my FTP is about 265-270, and I'm slowly making some gains.

Problem is I'm running out of times to ride, with a wife and two kids plus a full time job I can't ride 20 hours a week. I'm riding 5-6hrs a week between 90 and 120 miles. I am trying to find ways to slip an an extra half hour here or there. I've also been doing strength training from the house two days a week, mostly body weight. Push-ups, pull-ups, rows, dips, curls and shoulder presses with the dumbbells that I have.

I decided to start going to the gym, I get a better and fuller workout and it's fun going with buddies. I'm doing strength training two days a week now, same as alwaysm but using machines and free weights (I have a low back issue that makes some free weights tough) instead of doing it at home. My typical week looks something like this:

Monday: Recovery Ride, Zone 1, keep heart rate below 120
Tuesday: Harder ride, 50 min to 1 hr with some threshold work, some sprints with recovery (think Jon's mix type work out if you're familiar with Zwift). XSS typically in the 65-80 range.
Wednesday: Strength training, includes legs, but I don't work them super hard. I do leg-press, leg extensions and curls to work muscles and get them fully extended under strain.
Thursday: Typically another hard day on the bike, with hitting the legs a little on weds I'm now thinking about a Z2 or Z3 focus day and doing an hour.
Friday: Day off - maybe a few pushups or pull ups or a Z1 or Z2 ride but it's intermittent and not consistent.
Saturday: Typically a big ride day, group ride or a longer solo ride, 40-60 miles, sometimes longer. I mix in some higher power stuff here and try to find ways to make it hard even if the group is slower. For example my XSS is usually in the 150-250 range on this ride. My Strava relative effort is 200-300 most of the time, I've had a few creep into the mid 300s or upper 300s.
Sunday: Strength Training + a Z2 ride of 10-20 miles depending on how I'm feeling.

What can I do or should I do to continue to make FTP gains on the bike, maintain my generally good overall fitness as well? I keep getting told conflicting things about working my legs. One trainer told me that you could definitely lift the day after a hard ride because it works the muscles differently. Another told me that I could do the opposite, lift hard, then ride hard the following day, and I've had two trainers now tell me at consults that I should limit my riding after a leg day because if you continually tear those fibers you risk injury.

Right now I'm thinking that I'll hit the weights harder on Sunday since I have a recovery ride on Monday. Only do moderate leg days on Weds since I intend to hit the bike with a Z3 ride on thurs.

Any thoughts and tips would be welcome.

You're getting conflicting advice because there isn't a one size fits all, correct approach. Most people who do both go easier with weights during the season and then switch for the winter.

There's a lot of controversy over whether lifting helps road riding. The stuff you do in the gym probably won't have much effect on your FTP. It's great for you in other ways though. It'll also help you in the event of a crash.

Be careful with the leg press. People sometimes go too low to get the full range of motion, causing the back to round and it's not great for your spine. Especially if you doesn't have back problems.

Sounds pretty good. I usually ride some before weight, usually an hour of endurance or pedaling drills. Day after weights I don't do anything strenuous, recovery or endurance or nothing. I never lift moderate. I usually lift to failure. Doesn't do much if you don't. I focus on legs and back, no abs, but do a good bit of upper body dumbbell work in winter. Never more than an hour in the gym.

In summer, I cut the gym back to 1 day/week and in the hard season, down to about 30', just a few basic heavy lifts.

If you're going to ride the same day you lift, ride first. Always do your primary sport first. That's why the gym rats do cardio after lifting.

Weights will do nothing for your FTP, but they can increase endurance if done right. Find a faster group that you can't hang with for the whole ride. That's the easy way to get faster - the group provides the motivation so you don't have to whip yourself.

Trading a hard day on the bike on Thursday because you're recovering from your lifting on Wednesday will likely make you slower overall. 1 hour at z2 isnt going to provide much benefit at all. If you're going to lift, make sure it doesnt compromise your limited time on the bike if that is your primary goal

Given what you say here, if your primary goal is to get faster, I'd do the hard leg day on Sunday after your harder ride on Saturday. If cycling is your main goal, I'd also think about keeping Thursday hard. This doesn't necessarily mean you have to limit your leg work on Wednesday - you don't have to be fully recovered to ride hard on Thursday. But, if you feel you need to limit one, I'd limit the Wednesday lower body lifting (again, assuming cycling is your main goal).

But... I don't think it really matters much in the overall grand scheme of things. Do what fits your life/schedule/available free time/social aspects best. If going with buddies helps motivate you, then that is the best time to lift. The best training plan in the world means little if you're miserable, or it ruins your marriage. You're not a pro (and even they are often forced to train sub-optimally due to race/sponsor demands). Long term consistency is the most important thing, and that means doing what is (relatively) enjoyable and what you can fit into your life without too much disruption.

As you can already see, there are many ways to approach incorporating strength training into your cycling program.

I highly recommend a book called "Easy Strength" by Pavel Tsatsouline and Dan John. The authors provide great guidelines for getting stronger without negatively impacting your chosen sport, which, here, would obviously be cycling.

So if you're looking for more time to ride but are also asking about weight lifting.. the answer seems obvious to me, skip the lifting and go for a ride.

That said, I've found some benefits to minor lifting.

1. I do a bent over row with dumbbells 2-3 times a week at a weight I can just barely finish 3x8. This has almost totally cured a pinched nerve in my back. I went from not being able to look left on long rides to just going on long rides. Huge difference.

2. Low back extension with minor weight, also 2-3 days a week. Has the double benefit of helping calm the low back muscles from days standing at work and also calm the low back muscles during those killer 10+ mile climbs.

I do other stuff too but I'm unsure of the benefits. It's mostly to keep my chronically skinny self from blowing away.

Those two are the only two I've noticed real tangible results. That's like 10 minutes a few times a week. Do that and ride more.

I just finished two months of physical therapy, 2-3 times a week, an hour per session. Some moderate weights, mostly working on old and new neck, shoulder and back injuries. Not much leg work, other than the rowing machine.

After the first few weeks I cut back to twice a week. I needed more recovery time and my priority was bike riding. I rode to and from PT, a 6 mile round trip on a roller coaster route so I treated the commute as interval training. Twice weekly was plenty of workout.

It really helped my preferred road rides of 20-50 miles. With a stronger core my overall stamina and efficiency improved. I no longer got dropped on hills in moderately fast group rides, and often reach the top quicker than most of the group. That's a huge difference for me compared with before PT. It was surprising how much a stronger core and arms made in cycling.

Besides improving neck flexibility and strength, I can hold an aero position longer, hang onto a stronger wheel in front of me, or bridge a gap to regain a draft. Couldn't do that before because I couldn't stay in the drops or in an aero tuck on the hoods for more than 30 seconds. Now I can ride for several minutes in an aero tuck, on the hoods or drops. My legs aren't any stronger. My cardio isn't any better. I'm just making better use of what I had.

I'm taking a break from PT for a couple of weeks, but when I get back in the gym I'm going to add some leg work. Mostly to stabilize my joint control better. They had me doing that on my shoulders and it helped. So if some leg presses and squats help stabilize my hips, knees, etc., so much the better.

Exactly why I get frustrated when some folks say, "Cycling is an aerobic sport. Strength training is counterproductive." I have a 46 y.o. carpenter fellow rider who's strong as an ox. His shoulders are a bit amazing to squeeze, but he's not a big guy. Looks like a cyclist. Animal on the bike. No, sure 'nough doesn't need strength training. But many of us are not him. Another of my buddies is really fast but has given up long rides. Can't stay on the bike because of various muscle failures - not his legs. Never has done strength work.

Absolutely leg works helps, especially if you're over 40. The next 2 months, I'm shifting over to hiking mode: full body in the gym, Stepmill (Stairway to Hell), running, hiking, and a little roller work to keep things loose. Next year on the bike, I'll get benefit from this training, mostly in the form of durability of my body.

Sorry for the random question, nothing to do with this thread.

Have you done Little Annapurna?

It's walk-up. Steepish in spots, but a walk-up. I was wearing mt. boots. Trail runners with good soles would have been fine. We're trying to decide on a 40-50 mile backpacking loop.

I'm doing the Enchantments as a day hike, Colchuck to Snow. Considering doing Little A while there. Any advice?

For a 40+ mile route I'd look to the Pasayten or Sawtooths. Or maybe do a loop through the park and visit Stehekin? I've always wanted to see North Fork Bridge Creek Meadows.

Trailhead to Asgard is more time-consuming than one might think. Rest of it is fast trail.

As another sufferer of low back issues, what as helped nearly to the point of iliminating the problem has been core strengthening. Those core exercises help maintain everything properly lined up so that loads in the back are distributed. This is why a straight back is necessary in lifting weights or riding the bike. It would seem counter intuitive but many with back pain, not just myself, report no pain on a drop bar bike.

I enjoy travel videos and You Tube has many. Recently I was watching villagers in a third world country preparing their fields for planting. They were still plowing with an ox but many of the villagers were then breaking up the plowed clods of dirt by hand with hoes. They were all bent over swinging their hoes all day but I noticed they al had completely straight back. I've noticed the same thing with villagers planting rice.

Yes, no pain on a drop bar bike. I've fixed back pain on others by increasing their drop. Straight back is key. Do McKenzie stretches, too. Big help. Google it.

NPR had this story which sounds about the same as what you're saying.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...e-their-spines

Apologies again for the thread drift but thank you so much for the info, especially about the way down. (I'll stop now.)

The OP would benefit by reading "Easy Strength" as you suggest, the quadrants discussion is enlightening. But man, those are some seriously ol' skool attitudes, and I mean ATTiTudes. First book I've read that suggested I might be a pansy for not wearing worn out cotton sweats to the gym....

Ah, that's just part of their schtick. You can disregard the extraneous comments and focus on the strength advice, which is quite good.

I've been doing a lot of reflection on my year on the bike so far and also research on how to use my training time more wisely. I'm a recreational cyclist and I always will be but I enjoy following routines and having some structure. My two main sources of information have been Sir Chris Hoy's 'How to ride a bike' and the Youtube channel of Dylan Johnson who is a coach for Carmichael Training Systems, both have fascinated me. They are very similar in their advice. I want to go longer and harder and they both recommend a blend of shorter interval and threshold work plus longer endurance rides plus some strength and conditioning.

However, I'm struggling to come up with a schedule that will not hinder either riding or strength gains or rest days. I've worked out that I can commit to 6 hours on the bike every week and 1 hour in the gym (I don't mean off-season) and I can do this around work and life commitments. It's just a case of how to schedule these 7 hours in a working week.

So as an example week:

Monday - Off
Tuesday - Indoor 1hr
Wednesday - Free
Thursday - Indoor 1hr (or gym)
Friday - Off
Saturday - Indoor 1hr
Sunday - Outdoor endurance 3hrs

Note the indoor sessions will be a mix of intervals, threshold and capacity. Hoy and Johnson say that any more than 3 isn't beneficial and Hoy actually prescribes 2 per week.

Monday and Friday have to be off days as I have commitments them evenings.

I need to fit in a gym session. If I go Wednesday then that will hamper my Thursday performance. I work long hours during the week so I can't double up on any night.

An idea that I have, which might be a load of rubbish, is do I cancel the Thursday indoor session and swap to the gym? Potentially adding some time to my interval sessions or even the endurance one to make it back up to 6 hours? What would you do?

Good schedule.

You might try:
Monday - Off
Tuesday - Indoor 1hr w/1 long Fast Pedal interval, Z2, until your legs are shot (up to 40 minutes), then cool down. https://www.active.com/articles/carm...out-terms#fast except don't let your HR climb. You have to ride again tomorrow. Probably use your lowest gear. This is actually a recovery ride if you're in really good form.
Wednesday - Indoor 1 hour, steady Z2 or intervals if you feel good.
Thursday - Gym 1 hr. Don't worry if your legs are a little tired. Doesn't matter, different energy systems.
Friday - Off
Saturday - Indoor 1hr - Z2 but include one 90" interval.
Sunday - Outdoor endurance 3hrs - rather than do strict endurance, I recommend a group ride with folks faster than you. That pretty much takes care of your week's high end work, plus it's really fun. Pain with others more fun than pain alone.

If you're under 50, you should be able to handle this volume/intensity mix. Over 50, you might have to scale it back a bit sometimes.

Great to hear thanks, and yes I'm under 50. Not quite 30. I'm glad you didn't say ditch the gym work. I'm on a bit of an overall health kick and whereas I won't be hitting upper-body hard, I do want some gains there.

My next question is how to make sure that those midweek workouts have progressive overload but that's probably for a new thread and the search function.

weight training will help you on the bike. If you are getting huge arms and shoulders you may get more aero drag, but stronger legs and overall power can offset that.
I like deadlifts and squats, good for back too when done correctly

How many years have you been lifting, and what sort of program?

And squats will build more core strength than all the planks and sit ups.