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-   -   Have you noticed an uptick in local cyclists who are now trying to coach? (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=1195551)

Radish_legs 03-10-20 09:43 PM

Have you noticed an uptick in local cyclists who are now trying to coach?
 
I'm not talking pros. Just local cat 1s and 2s. It seems to me that during the Lance days there were a lot more guys coaching. Then the coaching market cratered. Is it possibly picking up again, at least in terms of guys pursuing it?

topflightpro 03-11-20 07:10 AM

I never noticed it cratered. If anything, I feel like the coaching market has continued to get larger even as the number of races/racers has seemed to decline.

Cypress 03-11-20 09:11 AM

I've seen it a lot here in Oregon. Someone will fire up through the categories then use their localized popularity to gain a client base. The schedule/location flexibility and tax write offs of being a trainer allow them to travel and ride a ton in an attempt to make it in the domestic pro peloton. I can't blame them though...If I could get paid well enough to live out of a converted Sprinter van and just ride my bike every day while still growing my retirement portfolio, I totally would. Until then, catch me at my desk 40+ hours a week parleying with you goons.

Maybe I should start charging Bike Forums for my posts. An e-coach, if you will. Every thread in the Road forum has a 98.1% failure rate in providing sound advice to other cyclists. There's a huge penchant for ignoring/arguing advice from guys that have literally decades of practicable experience in lieu of "theory". The only people that have their heads screwed on straight seem to come from this racing subforum. If a person has the time, they could read through the entire "Training Status" thread and come out with more applicable cycling/coaching knowledge than most of the coaches I know.

Hermes 03-11-20 09:53 AM

I cannot say that the coaching scene has changed much in SoCal. I am using the same guys I have used on an off for years. I think their business is down due to Apps and devices / Apps like Peloton and then there is the social media platforms like Strava and Zwift.

hubcyclist 03-11-20 10:00 AM

Can't say I've noticed, but then again I haven't been looking. I would be curious to know what a coach would do with me that I haven't been doing with stuff like trainerroad. It must be an interesting time to try to be a coach, there's a wealth of apps and information that anyone can get most of the way there on their own. Personally, I would like to get into helping non-cyclists get started with cycling training and helping them find their way to using bikes as a way to get in great shape (even if they have no intention of racing).


Every thread in the Road forum has a 98.1% failure rate in providing sound advice to other cyclists.
Don't look in the training and nutrition forum lol

furiousferret 03-11-20 12:07 PM

Its always been that way. Someone goes up the ranks, get a quasi impressive palmares and starts coaching. I don't think being a winner is necessarily a prerequisite to being a good coach, if pro sports teach us anything the bad ones that keep trying end up being the best.

echappist 03-11-20 12:31 PM


Originally Posted by furiousferret (Post 21362267)
Its always been that way. Someone goes up the ranks, get a quasi impressive palmares and starts coaching. I don't think being a winner is necessarily a prerequisite to being a good coach, if pro sports teach us anything the bad ones that keep trying end up being the best.

pretty much this. alternatively, someone who's talented and actually contemplative enough to learn can also make a good coach.

a lot of people shot through the ranks because of talent, not that their specific training got them there. They then have the notion that whatever they did was effective in helping them achieve, without pausing to think that their talent allowed them to achieve, despite of non-optimal training.

it also doesn't help that it's ridiculously easy for someone to become a USAC certified coach (though levels 2 and 1 do require more)

topflightpro 03-11-20 01:52 PM


Originally Posted by echappist (Post 21362313)
it also doesn't help that it's ridiculously easy for someone to become a USAC certified coach (though levels 2 and 1 do require more)

Level 3 is stupid easy. Level 2 requires a weekend commitment at a clinic. Level 1 requires 5 years as a Level 2 (or 3 years +200 CE hours) plus a long weekend in COS.

Anyone who's attained Level 1 status has put in substantial effort.

Racer Ex 05-18-20 12:06 PM

Being good at something doesn't mean you'd be good at teaching others how to do it. In the last few years I've ended up with more clients who have come from other coaches, vs. people new to the process. Either there was a bad fit from a personality standpoint, or the coach didn't really provide a solid plan for that person's needs, mostly the latter.

I haven't seen a groundswell in folks coaching compared to the Carmichael days. I see a lot of folks utilizing online tools. Might be a local thing.

The USAC certification program is mostly test taking, having a shingle to impress people (and charge more), and providing a revenue stream for USAC, based on my experience.

Dunning-Kruger is strongest when someone has a credential. Not to say there aren't great Level 1 coaches, but knowing a theory and implementing one into a practical situation require different skills.

kensuf 05-18-20 02:09 PM

Gotta echo what is said ^^ here.

I teach scuba as a side hobby. The stuff I teach isn't your basic "let's learn to dive" stuff, but more along the lines of "let's do our own stupid tricks in caves and with fancy equipment that is hell bent on killing you". I see a lot of people that are fantastic divers but absolutely crappy instructors.

When I cared about racing, I knew a lot of really fast guys that got into coaching. Some of them I think were probably pretty decent, but some were definitely not. Being fast on a bike doesn't necessarily mean you are good at helping others.

colnago62 05-20-20 08:40 PM

Teaching is my profession (music). A good coach is able to design programs that help maximize the potential of his clients, which tends to be a little different for everyone. One of the difficulties of being naturally gifted is that these people sometimes did not have to go through the same processes less gifted had to get to where they are. Many times it is something that always been there, so when trying to explain a way improve, they struggle.

Doge 05-21-20 10:50 AM

Several (three) of the ex LUX kids are coaching and staying pretty busy at it. They have some very fast students.

furiousferret 05-21-20 12:10 PM


Originally Posted by Doge (Post 21488628)
Several (three) of the ex LUX kids are coaching and staying pretty busy at it. They have some very fast students.

That doesn't mean they're good coaches (or bad, tbf). Lebron's coaches are literally yes men who get fired if they try to coach. A talented 18 year old probably can be guided the wrong way and still do well.

Doge 05-21-20 12:29 PM


Originally Posted by furiousferret (Post 21488769)
That doesn't mean they're good coaches (or bad, tbf). Lebron's coaches are literally yes men who get fired if they try to coach. A talented 18 year old probably can be guided the wrong way and still do well.

I doesn't. But it does mean there is a market for coaching and it seems to be increasing.
Another thing is the buddy/mentor system. Some are being paid to ride with others. My kid is being paid to ride with a fast (Cat 1 fast) 14 year old. I don't think he is coaching, just someone to put in miles with. That is pretty much what I did with my kid was pair him up with talent - paid and not paid.

topflightpro 05-21-20 01:39 PM


Originally Posted by Doge (Post 21488796)
I doesn't. But it does mean there is a market for coaching and it seems to be increasing.
Another thing is the buddy/mentor system. Some are being paid to ride with others. My kid is being paid to ride with a fast (Cat 1 fast) 14 year old. I don't think he is coaching, just someone to put in miles with. That is pretty much what I did with my kid was pair him up with talent - paid and not paid.

What liability does your son take on if he is riding with a junior like that if something bad happens, like getting struck by a car?

I know a couple coaches who won't train juniors because they don't want to have any responsibility for them riding on open roads.

Doge 05-21-20 02:09 PM


Originally Posted by topflightpro (Post 21488925)
What liability does your son take on if he is riding with a junior like that if something bad happens, like getting struck by a car?

I know a couple coaches who won't train juniors because they don't want to have any responsibility for them riding on open roads.

I expect is it like any other casual thing. This is common SoCal from surfing, to soccer practice to bike riding. I had not heard of any court cases. My expectation would be there real liability would be almost nothing, but a lawyer can make something of nothing quite easily.

Hermes 05-21-20 02:14 PM


Originally Posted by topflightpro (Post 21488925)
What liability does your son take on if he is riding with a junior like that if something bad happens, like getting struck by a car?

I know a couple coaches who won't train juniors because they don't want to have any responsibility for them riding on open roads.

IMO, once one examines the liability of coaching someone the business model starts to look difficult. At a minimum, the athlete must sign a waiver and the coach may or should have liability insurance in the case of accidents.

Juniors are another problem. For example, when I supervised the track that was attended by juniors, no junior was allowed to ride unless we had a current signed waiver from a parent or legal guardian (the same was true for adults). And juniors can show up with signed waivers that ahem someone else signed for them i.e. another junior.

To complicate matters further, if an adult falls a judgement call can be made to call 911. And an adult can refuse an ambulance ride. If a junior falls, theoretically, 911 must be called and the junior must get a ride to the ER. A junior cannot refuse a ride only a parent or guardian can make that call.

So junior is learning to ride fixed gear stops and falls in the grass. The parent is not there. Do you call 911 and send him to the ER?

New hypo...I was at the indoor track watching racing and they were running a junior girl mass start kilo race - 4 laps. The fathers were the holders for the daughters (12 years old) or some designee. After the neutral lap, all the girls crashed on lap one and some hit the deck sort of hard. What do you think happened?

All the girls were attended to by the fathers and put back on the starting line for a restart. That is the parents’ prerogative.

Without the parents there, the outcome would have been quite different or there would have been liability if it later turns out that one of the girls was seriously hurt and not properly attended to.

Adult to adult liability is usually okay but adult to child without the parent involved is dicey. YMMV a lot.

Doge 05-21-20 04:44 PM

If the OP was about more coaches - or more people paying for coaching - yes, I see that happening.

FWIW - they just finished 4 hour ride today. Parent was there.

Ttoc6 05-26-20 07:38 PM

Mentor - Mentee is a big thing in the sports I've picked up in the last year. Yes, you can hire a guide to take you up to ski big mountains or climb on rock.. But most don't. Most learn through experience after meeting someone that's been doing it a while. It just works.. The climbing gyms have weird rules about teaching to keep liability in check, but outside.. Everyone learns together!

colnago62 05-31-20 02:18 AM


Originally Posted by topflightpro (Post 21488925)
What liability does your son take on if he is riding with a junior like that if something bad happens, like getting struck by a car?

I know a couple coaches who won't train juniors because they don't want to have any responsibility for them riding on open roads.

When I worked with juniors, I carried insurance.


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