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wgscott 06-16-20 06:56 AM

Dexamethasone
 

UK experts say the low-dose steroid treatment is a major breakthrough in the fight against the deadly virus.

It cut the risk of death by a third for patients on ventilators. For those on oxygen, it cut deaths by a fifth.
BBC

genec 06-16-20 08:54 AM


Originally Posted by wgscott (Post 21536697)

I realize this is somewhat new news... but I find it odd that it is not widespread news...


Lead researcher Prof Martin Landray said the findings suggested one life could be saved for:
  • every eight patients on a ventilator
  • every 20-25 treated with oxygen
"There is a clear, clear benefit," he said.

"The treatment is up to 10 days of dexamethasone and it costs about £5 per patient.

"So essentially it costs £35 to save a life.

"This is a drug that is globally available."

When appropriate, hospital patients should now be given it without delay, Prof Landray said.
Actually, I just did a news search and this seems to be hitting "the wires" now...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...rus-update-us/
https://www.businessinsider.com/dexa...patient-2020-6
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...hs/3197420001/
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/16/w...rus-covid.html

3alarmer 06-16-20 09:39 AM

.
...it's comforting to see some positive news on the treatment front when there is this story rolling out now (not peer reviewed yet, so not exactly accepted science, but still.)
If 8.5% of your study participants are not producing antibodies (even in the short term), vaccination as a preventive is going to be problematic.

Which, of course, is not exactly news given the sort of virus we're talking about.

Biker395 06-16-20 09:46 AM

And also this ...

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...308v1.full.pdf

CliffordK 06-16-20 11:27 AM

I thought corticosteriods were common treatment for viral pneumonia for a long time.

:foo:

Reading influenza and other studies, apparently there is some ambiguity in the use of the corticosteroids.

"SARS" has an element of immune system overreaction, so the use of steroids would certainly be reasonable.

Glad to read that studies do show at least a mild benefit of them.

berner 06-17-20 08:15 AM

The NY Times has an article today about this. Slowly, effective approaches are being devised even as a complete understanding of covid-19 is still off in the future. They also had a list of major labs working on this. Many smart people the world over are slowly increasing effectiveness of treatment as
mote info is compiled.

At the same time, there are some in the research profession with a strong desire for celebrity releasing research reports before peer review which later have been retracted.

AnthonyG 06-19-20 05:49 PM

It's not surprising really that a cheap cure doesn't get that much attention.

The thing though with this treatment, that WAS reported but possibly went over many heads, is that this steroid is known to work as a simple anti-inflammatory. It works by suppressing the Cytokine storm which is what really does the killing. Without the Cytokine storm most people will live.

So, what else can you take that works as an anti-inflammatory?
Vitamin C by chance? Plenty more as well. Vitamin D?
How cheap is vitamin C?

wgscott 06-20-20 12:41 PM


Originally Posted by AnthonyG (Post 21543314)
It's not surprising really that a cheap cure doesn't get that much attention.

Not only is it not a cure, but it doesn't even seem to do much until the point that the patient has to go on a respirator.


The thing though with this treatment, that WAS reported but possibly went over many heads, is that this steroid is known to work as a simple anti-inflammatory.
​​​​​
Maybe you need to give other people a wee bit more credit.
So why doesn't ibuprofen and aspirin work?


​​ It works by suppressing the Cytokine storm which is what really does the killing. Without the Cytokine storm most people will live.
It is only showing efficacy for people who are suffering the after-effects of the cytokine storm. So unless it has time-travel properties that haven't been documented, your claim is a bit of a reach.


​​​​​​​So, what else can you take that works as an anti-inflammatory?
Vitamin C by chance? Plenty more as well. Vitamin D?
How cheap is vitamin C?
Don't forget chloroquine.

​​​​​​​If it quacks like a duck ...

3alarmer 06-20-20 01:14 PM

.
...Linus Pauling Lives !!!

wgscott 06-20-20 01:31 PM

The two Nobel Prizes was a dead giveaway.

AnthonyG 06-20-20 06:12 PM


Originally Posted by wgscott (Post 21544279)


Don't forget chloroquine.

If it quacks like a duck ...

Chloroquine is just another expensive compound with some anti-inflammatory properties and harmful unwanted effects.

As you pointed out, these proprietary anti-inflammatories only work after the fact which leaves vitamin C and other natural anti-inflammatories as the only ones that work preemptively.
Talk about leading a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

I was trying to make a reconciliatory gesture to the pharmaceutical industry by suggesting that they had something that works but you shot that one down.
Even at the edge of the precipice, you don't seem to want to back away from it.

3alarmer 06-20-20 07:14 PM

.
...now I want to dive into a vat of orange juice.

skookum 06-20-20 07:17 PM


Originally Posted by AnthonyG (Post 21544787)
Chloroquine is just another expensive compound with some anti-inflammatory properties and harmful unwanted effects.

As you pointed out, these proprietary anti-inflammatories only work after the fact which leaves vitamin C and other natural anti-inflammatories as the only ones that work preemptively.
Talk about leading a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

I was trying to make a reconciliatory gesture to the pharmaceutical industry by suggesting that they had something that works but you shot that one down.
Even at the edge of the precipice, you don't seem to want to back away from it.

What is the evidence for Vitamin C as a natural pre-emptive ant-inflammatory against Covid19?

wgscott 06-20-20 08:00 PM


Originally Posted by AnthonyG (Post 21544787)
I was trying to make a reconciliatory gesture to the pharmaceutical industry by suggesting that they had something that works but you shot that one down.
Even at the edge of the precipice, you don't seem to want to back away from it.

The thing is SARS-CoV-2 doesn't really care whether you believe science or not.

wgscott 06-20-20 08:01 PM


Originally Posted by skookum (Post 21544893)
What is the evidence for Vitamin C as a natural pre-emptive ant-inflammatory against Covid19?

The same as for young-earth creationism.

AnthonyG 06-20-20 08:02 PM


Originally Posted by skookum (Post 21544893)
What is the evidence for Vitamin C as a natural pre-emptive ant-inflammatory against Covid19?


Here's the first article I found regarding Vitamin C and its anti-inflammatory effects with obesity.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4492638/

Regarding COVID-19 specifically you ask?
Well, if Science doesn't design a study and go looking for it then they will never find it (monkey no look, no hear, no speak) but the general properties of Vitamin C as an anti-inflammatory are well understood.

To go full circle, I've been prescribed steroids (I can't remember if its the one we are discussing or not) as a treatment for a lung infection before. My point is that steroids for respiratory disease is nothing new or novel but until they tried it on COVID-19 and did a study, no one could say for certain.

skookum 06-21-20 09:38 AM

There are some clinical trials with vitamin C for covid. No results yet.

3alarmer 06-21-20 10:12 AM


Originally Posted by skookum (Post 21545553)
There are some clinical trials with vitamin C for covid. No results yet.

...pretty much the same for Linus Pauling's late work, and he's been dead for a while.

wgscott 06-21-20 01:36 PM

Some of these guys main-lined it, do avoid the gastric side-effects.

skookum 06-21-20 01:55 PM


Originally Posted by wgscott (Post 21545968)
Some of these guys main-lined it, do avoid the gastric side-effects.

There are quite a number of quacks offering intravenous vitamin C treatments for Covid19.

Despite an enthusiastic endorsement from the AANP, the FTC has repeatedly issued warning letters to clinics offering intravenous Vitamin C to prevent or treat COVID-19. Some of these are infusion clinics where it is unclear whether a licensed medical practitioner with prescription privileges is in charge. Since Vitamin C and other compounded infusions are prescription drugs under federal law, it is also unclear how they are operating from a legal standpoint.

One such clinic is Onus IV, in Colorado, which claims “Vitamin C is already being used to prevent and treat COVID-19 in China and Korea. And it is working.” The clinic falsely says that even small amounts of Vitamin C “dramatically decrease severity of symptoms and increase survival rates” and “large doses work better. Intravenous large doses work better still. . . .”
Science Based Medicine

79pmooney 06-21-20 02:57 PM

I will point out that there is zero incentive for a pharmaceutical to incest in vitamin C research. It's cheap and widely available. (Costco - 1 gram tablets ~4 cents.) Hence not much incentive (and grant money) to do the work to do a study n large enough numbers to be recognized and peer reviewed, Nobody's going to get rich.

I take several grams a day. Been doing this since well before COVID. I have seen zero adverse consequences and few colds. Costs me $19 every couple of months. Not counting on it to keep me COVID-free but if it ever does - what a side benefit! I'll never know so I"m not holding my breath.

Ben

wgscott 06-21-20 03:02 PM


Originally Posted by 79pmooney (Post 21546103)
I will point out that there is zero incentive for a pharmaceutical to incest in vitamin C research.

The government (mainly via the NIH) sponsors most academic and pharmaceutical company basic research.

There is lots of it.

wgscott 06-21-20 03:34 PM


Originally Posted by skookum (Post 21545999)
There are quite a number of quacks offering intravenous vitamin C treatments for Covid19.

I totally agree. But the guy I have in mind did have a Nobel Prize.

3alarmer 06-21-20 08:05 PM


Originally Posted by skookum (Post 21545999)
There are quite a number of quacks offering intravenous vitamin C treatments for Covid19.

Science Based Medicine


...from that same website, a brief history of Linus Pauling's research and approaches, as an introduction to his current "vindication"..

3alarmer 06-21-20 08:07 PM


Originally Posted by wgscott (Post 21546161)
I totally agree. But the guy I have in mind did have a Nobel Prize.


Originally Posted by op cit
It’s been noted that there appears to be a tendency among Nobel Prize recipients in science to become enamored of strange ideas or even outright pseudoscience in their later years. Indeed, it’s happened often enough that some wags have dubbed this tendency the “Nobel disease.” Be it Linus Pauling and his obsession with vitamin C, Nikolaas Tinbergen and his adoption of the “refrigerator mother” hypothesis as the cause of autism (which has led one blogger going by the ‘nym Prometheus to quip that Tinbergen’s Nobel acceptance speech represented a “nearly unbeatable record for shortest time between receiving the Nobel Prize and saying something really stupid about a field in which the recipient had little experience”), or Louis J. Ignarro going from a Nobel Prize in Medicine for his work in figuring out nitric oxide signaling pathways to pushing his book on arginine supplementation as a cure-all for heart disease and becoming a shill for Herbalife, there’s something about becoming a Nobel Laureate that has a tendency to lead people to becoming cranks. Either that, or maybe it’s because mavericks who make Nobel-worthy discoveries have a tendency not always to recognize that not all of their ideas are as brilliant as the ones that garnered the Nobel Prize for them, although certainly another possibility is that winning the Nobel Prize tends to give some scientists an inflated sense of their own expertise in fields of science not related to the ones for which they won their Nobel Prize in the first place.

...


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