Interesting Read, Some of it Obvious . . .
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his political analysis is interesting but don't think they are complete & I'm not on board with his conclusions, in spite of that particular reference to the "mayor Rob Ford's “urban elites” waging a “war on the car”. a lot of ppl now accusing others of being "elites" can't seem to see themselves in the mirror. & when someone’s arguments take the form of name-calling it’s a clear sign they don’t have anything valid or worthwhile to say
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I'm not at war with anyone. We are all people living the life we chose (or if not chosen, in a way that we can at least tolerate). The linked article, while well-intentioned (perhaps), only serves to convince people that polarization is significant and that there is no hope for middle ground. Cars aren't dividing America, it's the folks that demand the "us or them" allegiances who are.
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Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
(Post 21336071)
I'm not at war with anyone. We are all people living the life we chose (or if not chosen, in a way that we can at least tolerate). The linked article, while well-intentioned (perhaps), only serves to convince people that polarization is significant and that there is no hope for middle ground. Cars aren't dividing America, it's the folks that demand the "us or them" allegiances who are.
Beyond that, just to be clear, you're saying that an article which attempts to explain the role car infrastructure plays, and has played, in our divided society is itself divisive. I might actually agree with you if I were handing out leaflets or something, but isn't this the right place for a piece like this? |
Heard a piece on the radio the other day which noted that there was a strong correlation between the rise in the number of PhDs awarded in Civil Engineering and the increase in the amount of Mozzarella imported to the US.
The point being that correlation does not demonstrate causation. |
Originally Posted by Headpost
(Post 21336204)
...but isn't this the right place for a piece like this?
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Originally Posted by jon c.
(Post 21336253)
........................there was a strong correlation between the rise in the number of PhDs awarded in Civil Engineering and the increase in the amount of Mozzarella imported to the US...............................
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Originally Posted by Headpost
(Post 21336204)
Beyond that, just to be clear, you're saying that an article which attempts to explain the role car infrastructure plays, and has played, in our divided society is itself divisive. I might actually agree with you if I were handing out leaflets or something, but isn't this the right place for a piece like this?
Splitting people into bins seems to be a popular way to get newsy attention; however I don't like it much. |
I thought it was a ridiculous pile of babble.
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It seems to me it's likely that most of the points raised in the article could be objectively demonstrated to be valid. Apparently some feel these points just shouldn't be brought up.
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Originally Posted by jon c.
(Post 21336253)
Heard a piece on the radio the other day which noted that there was a strong correlation between the rise in the number of PhDs awarded in Civil Engineering and the increase in the amount of Mozzarella imported to the US.
The point being that correlation does not demonstrate causation. https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikaan.../#12bbb6033a67 |
Originally Posted by Paul Barnard
(Post 21336581)
I thought it was a ridiculous pile of babble.
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
(Post 21336905)
I wouldn't go that far, but I don't think the author really used the space to say anything definitive. And I don't think that the small sampling of the posters in this thread really get it either. Including you: car dependence is not sustainable. Period. I don't want to debate it. It isn't a Liberal issue or a Conservative issue. It is an existential one. Neither is it something for a future society to deal with. Single driver 5,000lb+ conveyances trundling thither and yon over the landscape are a clear and present danger.
Of course the above assumes single occupancy: A car with 4 passengers is 314, a MC w/2 is 387, Tesla 65, and a bike is kind of stuck at 65. This is something that I have been thinking about. Why do we need 5,000 lb plus vehicles? Well to protect us from other 5,000 lb plus vehicles, right? And as speed in creases the force of impact increases, so we need more protection which usually weighs more, and so on. It is kind of a viscous cycle. At the same time the vast number of car trips are short (under 10 miles) and probably never hit over 30 MPH.) You could design an electric car that would easily go over a hundred miles on a charge if it only weighed 1000 lbs. and didnt go over 30 MPH. What if urban areas turned their roads only into "SOV-lite" vehicles with speed limits of 30 MPH with designated transit roads and (of course) increased in transit offerings? There is in fact a rough equivalent of the vehicle in question: Arcimoto (https://www.arcimoto.com/) Its KCals/mile is 120, better than a Tesla not quite a bicycle. I think this vehicle or its something like it may be the future of transportation for single occupancy, and with two occupants is 60 KCals/mile or on par with a bicycle. The other 5000 lbs vehicles that we all fear getting hit buy in our car are either other 5000lb SOVs or delivery vehicles. of some sort. So if we get beyond all having 5000lb 140HP + cars then the remaining issue is delivery vehicles. Now the theoretical 1000lb electric vehicle wouldn't be going on the freeway so no issues with trucks there- the issue would be to either end or manage the co-mingling of delivery vehicles in the "last mile" from getting off controlled access roads to delivery. I do not really have an answer for that. But I do agree that continuing on our present course is not sustainable., |
Originally Posted by starkmojo
(Post 21338822)
I look it this in terms of energy expenditures. A car at 25mpg consumes 1250 Kcals/ mile. A motorcycle at 40mpg 775, A Tesla 258 KCals. A bicyclist, 65 KCals/mile. Energy expenditures= extraction of resources= environmental impact. I think putting every form of transportation on the same scale helps highlight the impact or our transportation choices.
Of course the above assumes single occupancy: A car with 4 passengers is 314, a MC w/2 is 387, Tesla 65, and a bike is kind of stuck at 65. This is something that I have been thinking about. Why do we need 5,000 lb plus vehicles? Well to protect us from other 5,000 lb plus vehicles, right? And as speed in creases the force of impact increases, so we need more protection which usually weighs more, and so on. It is kind of a viscous cycle. At the same time the vast number of car trips are short (under 10 miles) and probably never hit over 30 MPH.) You could design an electric car that would easily go over a hundred miles on a charge if it only weighed 1000 lbs. and didnt go over 30 MPH. What if urban areas turned their roads only into "SOV-lite" vehicles with speed limits of 30 MPH with designated transit roads and (of course) increased in transit offerings? There is in fact a rough equivalent of the vehicle in question: Arcimoto (https://www.arcimoto.com/) Its KCals/mile is 120, better than a Tesla not quite a bicycle. I think this vehicle or its something like it may be the future of transportation for single occupancy, and with two occupants is 60 KCals/mile or on par with a bicycle. The other 5000 lbs vehicles that we all fear getting hit buy in our car are either other 5000lb SOVs or delivery vehicles. of some sort. So if we get beyond all having 5000lb 140HP + cars then the remaining issue is delivery vehicles. Now the theoretical 1000lb electric vehicle wouldn't be going on the freeway so no issues with trucks there- the issue would be to either end or manage the co-mingling of delivery vehicles in the "last mile" from getting off controlled access roads to delivery. I do not really have an answer for that. But I do agree that continuing on our present course is not sustainable., Of course drivers--and car companies that are trying to push the fantasy of illicit speed in their sport models--would scream bloody murder; and police departments and local governments wouldn't want them either since they make so much of their revenue by handing out speeding tickets. So we'll all just keep going the way we're going, and another 40,000 people will die in traffic accidents this year. What a world. |
Originally Posted by starkmojo
(Post 21338822)
I look it this in terms of energy expenditures. A car at 25mpg consumes 1250 Kcals/ mile. A motorcycle at 40mpg 775, A Tesla 258 KCals. A bicyclist, 65 KCals/mile. Energy expenditures= extraction of resources= environmental impact. I think putting every form of transportation on the same scale helps highlight the impact or our transportation choices.
Of course the above assumes single occupancy: A car with 4 passengers is 314, a MC w/2 is 387, Tesla 65, and a bike is kind of stuck at 65. This is something that I have been thinking about. Why do we need 5,000 lb plus vehicles? Well to protect us from other 5,000 lb plus vehicles, right? And as speed in creases the force of impact increases, so we need more protection which usually weighs more, and so on. It is kind of a viscous cycle. At the same time the vast number of car trips are short (under 10 miles) and probably never hit over 30 MPH.) You could design an electric car that would easily go over a hundred miles on a charge if it only weighed 1000 lbs. and didnt go over 30 MPH. What if urban areas turned their roads only into "SOV-lite" vehicles with speed limits of 30 MPH with designated transit roads and (of course) increased in transit offerings? There is in fact a rough equivalent of the vehicle in question: Arcimoto (https://www.arcimoto.com/) Its KCals/mile is 120, better than a Tesla not quite a bicycle. I think this vehicle or its something like it may be the future of transportation for single occupancy, and with two occupants is 60 KCals/mile or on par with a bicycle. The other 5000 lbs vehicles that we all fear getting hit buy in our car are either other 5000lb SOVs or delivery vehicles. of some sort. So if we get beyond all having 5000lb 140HP + cars then the remaining issue is delivery vehicles. Now the theoretical 1000lb electric vehicle wouldn't be going on the freeway so no issues with trucks there- the issue would be to either end or manage the co-mingling of delivery vehicles in the "last mile" from getting off controlled access roads to delivery. I do not really have an answer for that. But I do agree that continuing on our present course is not sustainable., Cheers |
Originally Posted by Miele Man
(Post 21340170)
Watch the lightweight cars on a freeway/highway sometime when there's a strong crosswind. Just like bicycles those lightweight cars often get moved quite a distance sideways by those winds especially if the crosswind is not steady but is gusting.
Cheers |
Originally Posted by Headpost
(Post 21340089)
My own pet/fantasy idea is that cars and trucks should have to have speed governors, variable ones that would work with a GPS to restrict the vehicle's speed according to where they are. For instance, if they're driving on a highway, they can go 65; on a road in town, 30, or whatever. Not a new idea, but my guess is that it would reduce the number of people killed in accidents by half (but really, who knows, maybe more than that). What it would also mean, though, is that you could actually have small, light vehicles for driving on local roads without the fear of being hit by some car doing 50 in a 25 zone.
Of course drivers--and car companies that are trying to push the fantasy of illicit speed in their sport models--would scream bloody murder; and police departments and local governments wouldn't want them either since they make so much of their revenue by handing out speeding tickets. So we'll all just keep going the way we're going, and another 40,000 people will die in traffic accidents this year. What a world. |
Originally Posted by Miele Man
(Post 21340170)
Watch the lightweight cars on a freeway/highway sometime when there's a strong crosswind. Just like bicycles those lightweight cars often get moved quite a distance sideways by those winds especially if the crosswind is not steady but is gusting.
Cheers |
There are something like 8 billion people on the planet now, (don't know the exact number). Everyone of them wants a nice house and a car. Going by the "Rule of 72", however many autos and trucks are on the roads today, at 2% growth there will be twice as many in 32 years. This indicates that twice as many road miles will be needed, or something near that. In an anti-science environment such as we have today where some people believe the Earth is flat, I'm not confident we will be able to solve the high consequence problems facing the planet.
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Originally Posted by Notso_fastLane
(Post 21340568)
Semi-trucks get blown over all the time, so do many modern (heavy) SUVs. Those situations are pretty uncommon, though, and definitely not a reason to not go with lighter vehicles in general.
Cheers |
Originally Posted by Miele Man
(Post 21340989)
No, as vehicles become lighter and lighter these situations become more common. Think about the SMART CAR and how many people with them won't drive them on a freeway because the vehicle is so susceptible to side winds and wind gusts.
Cheers |
Originally Posted by Miele Man
(Post 21340989)
No, as vehicles become lighter and lighter these situations become more common. Think about the SMART CAR and how many people with them won't drive them on a freeway because the vehicle is so susceptible to side winds and wind gusts.Cheers
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Originally Posted by Miele Man
(Post 21340170)
Watch the lightweight cars on a freeway/highway sometime when there's a strong crosswind. Just like bicycles those lightweight cars often get moved quite a distance sideways by those winds especially if the crosswind is not steady but is gusting.
Cheers On a side note I spent years as a motorcycle only commuter in the NW. You can handle crosswinds on the freeway at speed. That's a 500lb vehicle at 70 miles an hour. |
Originally Posted by starkmojo
(Post 21343675)
I drove VW buses for 20 years you dont have to tell me about crosswinds. I am talking sub 1000lb vehicles for intra-urban transit going 30 miles an hour. Yes people may have to slow down in heavy winds, but apparently the entire planet becoming uninhabitable for human civilization is OK so that once or twice a year you might have to slow down to say 25 MPH.
On a side note I spent years as a motorcycle only commuter in the NW. You can handle crosswinds on the freeway at speed. That's a 500lb vehicle at 70 miles an hour. Cheers |
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