on the M25 this isn't so easy and one is really stuck.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6bef3e32f1.jpg |
Originally Posted by acidfast7
(Post 20965155)
Disagree. In a car and on a motorway one can't stop.
On foot or on a bike one is in control of one's destiny even in the London tube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxfX2Y9og8E One can get out by just standing next to the wall as the trains come every 90 sec, which is unbelievable really. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ0zk4MWCQY&t=178s Seriously, though. I'd rather be stuck in car traffic in a car with a comfy reserved seat, climate control, and the radio playing what I want to listen to than stand up on public transport like a vertical sardine. Been there and done that, as they say. At least the heavy bicycling traffic would be much more enjoyable than standing in a subway car. Out in the fresh air and in control of my own vehicle as it were. :D |
Originally Posted by acidfast7
(Post 20964839)
I also think there is an important distinction being missed by many posters in this thread.
That's being a tourist and cycling around and living there and actually commuting with such infrastructure. These are totally different. There are a lot of commenters saying that it's not nirvana and it's too busy. When I first moved to Stockholm, then Copenhagen, I would have agreed. However, after a few weeks. It makes a huge amount of sense. A quick handdrop and I get on/off the cycleways and do all my shopping. It's actually super nice. Coming from commuting in Maine and Texas where it's a barren wasteland for commuting (with the exception of Austin), it's bliss and it makes a huge amount of sense. However, I can appreciate that Midwesterners here stating that it's too hectic in those videos. I think they'd get used to if they gave it a shot in earnest or actually needed it to commute on a day-in/day-out basis. Thus, I can't really hold it against the people in thread without the proper experience. |
People left Europe and settled in the New World for many reasons. Pretty sure crowded bike lanes was high on the list.
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Originally Posted by Stadjer
(Post 20965113)
They have had years of practice, also if they're from the countryside. It's not ruled by formal rules (cycling side by side is allowed btw @cyccommute), it's more like swarm behaviour and overthinking it doesn't help.
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Originally Posted by alan s
(Post 20965190)
People left Europe and settled in the New World for many reasons. Pretty sure crowded bike lanes was high on the list.
:lol: |
Originally Posted by FiftySix
(Post 20965210)
I always wondered why paintings of the Mayflower didn't show any bicycles on board. Bunch of anti-cyclists on that boat, I'm sure.
:lol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...wer_passengers I wouldn't mind being trapped in a pub with them for the evening. |
Originally Posted by acidfast7
(Post 20965129)
Sorry, that was a generalisation. Probably not a good one either. In the end, I feel like Utrecht doesn't have the tourist pull of AMS. (To be honest, I actually hate AMS due to the tourists but end up going occasionally.) I have some collaborators at UU in biophysics, which is extremely strong. I like the city quite a bit but it doesn't have that capital feel, which is nice in some ways and not nice in others.
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 20965207)
Cycling side-by-side is allowed by whom? If there are no formal rules (confirming what I saw in Amsterdam), then anything is allowed. But informal rules of just plain politeness says that you shouldn’t be riding side-by-side on a narrow path with lots of on-coming traffic or overtaking traffic. It might be okay (but still rude) if there were 10% of that traffic on that path. But on a crowded pathway, simple courtesy would dictate that you ride single file.
Where I live there's less cars and buses than in Utrecht and Amsterdam and less cycle paths in the city centre because of that. People often ride with 3 next to eachother, depending on the nature of their conversation. It's impolite to shut one out of the conversation just because you're cycling.
Originally Posted by FiftySix
(Post 20965210)
I always wondered why paintings of the Mayflower didn't show any bicycles on board. Bunch of anti-cyclists on that boat, I'm sure.
:lol: |
Originally Posted by Stadjer
(Post 20965409)
They left the Netherlands because it was too liberal, so that adds up. |
I grew up in NYC where everything is congested. I was glad to move out to New Jersey and start commuting by car. But before long, I learned that the freedom was an illusion, and it's more irritating than taking public transit. One thing that got on my nerves the most was that the danger to life and property is much greater in a car. When someone does something stupid or inconsiderate, it is a potential wreck or injury or death. Not so on the subway.
I've been on crowded subways and in motor traffic and bike traffic and even foot traffic. All forms can be irritating, but I'd rather be irritated on a bike than anywhere else. |
i wonder where this person got his busiest bikepath in netherlands numbers, admittedly i did not watch the whole vid but for the minute i saw it didn't look like anything above your average bikepath traffic in any dutch city.
as for some comments i read while skimming through thread i'll do give some answers per topic. ebikes: someone mentioned ebikes and commuting speed looking slower than em. for the past couple of years ebikes have been getting more and more popular specially in the 50+ population. they tend to usually ride at the lower end of their ebike speed capacity, as i tend to pass em pretty often. clothing: There isn't a mentality of taking extra clothing for your commute here, you just do some math as to how long it will take you to get to work at a pace were you won't overheat/sweat and leave home at appropriate time. dropbars: dropbar commuting is pretty rare most just take their dutch style "omafiets" with basket and rack to throw their stuff in/on. that said take any weekend or after office hours just outside any city center and you will see tons of people fully kitted on roadbikes riding solo or in groups. helmets: helmets are very rarely used here specially when commuting. it is mostly the realm of those fully kitted individuals riding for fun and exercise after working hours. riding behaviour/traffic: there is a simple rule here, hear a bell or scooter horn and merge to the right to let them pass. most of the time you are riding along path with at least one person you know so you end up just chatting and biking side by side until whoever is on left hears a bell and merges momentarily. not that hard really. as for the person sayign about amsterdam biking being nerve wrecking, withing a radius of 2 km from central station to the south., will be the busiest bike paths you will find. lots of delivery guys on scooters in a hurry, lots of tourists being completely overwhelmed and lots of people breaking some sort of rule to get to where they need to be faster. i find it pretty fun to be honest. if you need to pull over put your hand out signalling you are pullign over to warn whoever is behind you and it's all good. and do not pull over to keep your bike on bikepath whiel you stand and search google maps, then you're just being a dick. hop on to sidewalk and check your maps then hop back in bikepath. |
Originally Posted by phile
(Post 20965473)
.
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Originally Posted by acidfast7
(Post 20966688)
what do you think at the VanMoof? I saw a few in person and they looked nice but more design than function. was I wrong? The pricepoint for the basic model was OK at around €700 w/MwSt.
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I see a lot of VanMoofs in my neighborhood. They look like more design than function, but I really don't know.
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Originally Posted by phile
(Post 20967205)
i have abused it for going on 2 years and have no complaints. there is a chain of long stay hotels aimed at students here that use em as their bike that comes with every room. basic model, has zero complaints.
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Originally Posted by acidfast7
(Post 20966688)
what do you think at the VanMoof? I saw a few in person and they looked nice but more design than function. was I wrong? The pricepoint for the basic model was OK at around €700 w/MwSt.
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Originally Posted by noglider
(Post 20967536)
I see a lot of VanMoofs in my neighborhood. They look like more design than function, but I really don't know.
(That said, people probably think I don't ride very often, because they probably don't realize I have 3 bikes on the racks, plus another 2 in my apartment...) |
When I first moved to Atlanta in the 90's the traffic was almost overwhelming but after a few days driving in it I quickly figured out how to blend in and do the same illegal moves all the thousands around me were doing and became more comfortable driving in it. I would imagine if I found myself riding in a city like Utrecht I'd see the same feeling and adjustment period.
That said, I don't enjoy crowds like that so I don't think I would enjoy that aspect of the ride but from other videos I've seen about their network of trails I would enjoy that type of riding. My city seems to be slowly trying to turn themselves into a version of the Netherlands. We now have over 120 roundabouts and more on the way which moves traffic really well. There are several roads that are getting "Road Diets" and they are adding in some protected bike lanes all be it very short in duration. The other big investment has been in our MUP's. We know have over 200 miles worth and I think another 10 miles worth are being built this summer. I primarily use the MUP's for recreational rides and my bike commute to work. I have seen an increase in riding more for pleasure than commuting but still its an increase. With the development of our new city center the primary section of the MUP that runs through that area is also getting a major makeover and it will be interesting to see how the mix of bikes, pedestrians and scooter/inline skaters blend. The big argument that always starts this time of your around here are the drivers who complain about cyclist riding on the roads and not the MUP's. I just know that my riding has increased dramatically due to the network of trails we have. Last year I started to bike commute because of the improvements allowing me a safe way to get to and from without really having to be on the roads since I only go around a 12 mph pace. |
Originally Posted by Stadjer
(Post 20969982)
I like the look of their mixte and I like what they were claiming to do, basically they wanted to rethink and redesign the practical Dutch urban bike, but I doubt they succeeded.
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Originally Posted by acidfast7
(Post 20972773)
It's a design specimen really. I usually saw them around design stores in European capitals but never saw them in the wild. They look cool and the pricepoint is cheap for a capital dweller.
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Originally Posted by Stadjer
(Post 20973565)
I believe the idea behind the design was to show sturdiness, simplicity and practicality in it's shapes. The design kind of works in showing what it's about. They claimed to make a Dutch city bike but that's probably more for international marketing where their real aim is. I've seen a quite a few older ones and they don't look like they will last very long. They went a bit over the top with the tech features at least once so I don't know about the simplicity. In practicality they seem to have some good ideas, like a space for a chain lock and the brake cables tugged close to the frame (cables are vulnerable in tight and busy bicycle racks), but they also lack things like a full chain case, a truly upright position and interchangeability of parts and accessoires also helps after a while. Maybe that's why the older ones look so bad.
the proprietary accessories is a paint though. had to pay around 80 euros for my front rack. |
I spent 5 days in Copenhagen. I was too intimidated to use a bicycle. In the center, it's a highway with seemingly lots of unwritten rules about passing, signaling, etc. As a tourist it would have been chaos, not knowing where I'm going. The cyclists all had agendas and destinations while I would have just been going haphazardly and interfering with the locals.
I will try next time though. |
@zenolee I hear what you're saying... it's a bit like being a straggling tourist on the sidewalks in New York or Tokyo you're gonna piss of a lot of more proficient pedestrians... when you're in a busy space where people conduct their daily lives, as you describe certain behaviour is expected and you learn to read the flow. By all means everyone don't adhere to the customs in CPH, but trust that they're frowned upon as well. Here's a basic rundown: A complete guide to bicycle etiquette in Copenhagen. ...it's really not too challenging - as a rule of thumb, if you keep to the side and remember to signal before you suddenly stop - you'll probably do okay. Those of us who go fast are very used to slow and or inexperienced bikers in our city... out of pure self interest we'll avoid collisions just fine :P
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Originally Posted by zenolee
(Post 20985325)
I spent 5 days in Copenhagen. I was too intimidated to use a bicycle. In the center, it's a highway with seemingly lots of unwritten rules about passing, signaling, etc. As a tourist it would have been chaos, not knowing where I'm going. The cyclists all had agendas and destinations while I would have just been going haphazardly and interfering with the locals.
I will try next time though.
Originally Posted by nuxx
(Post 20985648)
@zenolee I hear what you're saying... it's a bit like being a straggling tourist on the sidewalks in New York or Tokyo you're gonna piss of a lot of more proficient pedestrians... when you're in a busy space where people conduct their daily lives, as you describe certain behaviour is expected and you learn to read the flow. By all means everyone don't adhere to the customs in CPH, but trust that they're frowned upon as well. Here's a basic rundown: A complete guide to bicycle etiquette in Copenhagen. ...it's really not too challenging - as a rule of thumb, if you keep to the side and remember to signal before you suddenly stop - you'll probably do okay. Those of us who go fast are very used to slow and or inexperienced bikers in our city... out of pure self interest we'll avoid collisions just fine :P
To be clear, I’m not saying to not ride there but you should go with your eyes open and informed. It takes nerves of steel and not a small amount of skill to ride in those kinds of crowds, especially if you aren’t used to riding in those kinds of crowds. In my experience, few people who are used to riding in the US...and those who consider these places to be cycling nirvanas...are used to riding in that kind of traffic. |
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 20986060)
Just as you wouldn’t classify New York and Tokyo as “walking nirvana”, you shouldn’t necessarily classify those places as “cycling nirvanas”.
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 20986060)
Yes, there are a lot of bikes and a lot of bicycle infrastructure but that’s part of the problem...a very large part.
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 20986060)
To be clear, I’m not saying to not ride there but you should go with your eyes open and informed. It takes nerves of steel and not a small amount of skill to ride in those kinds of crowds, if you aren’t used to riding in those kinds of crowds. In my experience, few people who are used to riding in the US...
The bigger problem by far are these new electric mini scooters and the insurgence of electrical bike ownership propelling senior citizens to speeds of 25kmph they otherwise would never reach, nor are cognitively equipped to handle... "fortunately" they're usually themselves the primary victims when things go wrong. Bottomline, as a native Copenhagen'er who has lived in several major cities I disagree with your "romanticising" comment; living with cycling culture as second nature and a ubiquitous affordance throughout society is an absolutely immense quality of life factor essentially prohibiting me from living longer periods mostly anywhere else at this stage. In the past I've lived in Vancouver, St. Petersburg and London... where inevitably after some time withdrawal symptoms set in followed by claustrophobia simply because motorized traffic dominates life. It's a freedom we take for granted here, that you immediately notice losing in other urban locations, with a resulting sense of existential constriction. |
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