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-   -   The Water Cooler, Scuttlebutt, Chit Chat Thread (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=1105191)

bitingduck 06-14-17 10:46 PM


Originally Posted by Doge (Post 19654037)
To me it looks like he tried a gap, didn't think he could make it, saw a gap again took a run at it and seeing it close, didn't want to error on the side of safety and used his shoulder to throw his momentum the way he wanted. That there was also a curb on his left was more motivation to trow his mass the other direction. Otherwise he might have ended up down. I know that course pretty well, it is local and my kid's 1st Cat 3 crit win. There are lots of tight spots where if you are not lined up for position correctly, you will loose spots. Frankly - he's riding like a junior creating risk for others in his exuberance to win. It would not surprise me if he was jacked up on something - legal or not.

He had the whole right side of the road open and he aimed for the narrow hole, coasted to set up the contact, and leaned in and aimed for arm/handlebars.

Watch his weight shift as he lines it up at 6:08. The contact happens at 6:11 and he's coasting to lean in. Four seconds is a *long* time. He had more than enough time to back out of the hole that he put himself into, and he had plenty of time and room to go around on the right - many other riders were to the right of them, both up the road and behind. He chose to shoot the narrow gap (which was actually plenty wide enough to get through safely if he'd kept pedaling) and hit his victim on the arm/bars rather than on the hip. The curbside pass and aggressive behavior, including yelling at the person he's passing, are apparently his signature thing.

He basically barged into the hole intending to make contact. You don't even have to watch it at slow speed to see that, especially if you've spent much time racing. The spot where he got "blocked" a few seconds earlier was his own fault. He's trying to hold tight onto Walsh's wheel and got overlapped, then as Walsh drifted right he had to back out. Should have been no big deal- a) he shouldn't have overlapped, and b) there was no abrupt move that put him at risk, just a slow drift. He wasn't trying to pass- he had plenty of opportunity to do that but preferred to hang on the wheel and then got mad for whatever reason and barged in to intimidate.

Doge 06-14-17 11:08 PM


Originally Posted by bitingduck (Post 19654432)
He had the whole right side of the road open and he aimed for the narrow hole, ...

On that course - all rights, all sharp, he likely didn't want to take the right and give up his spot. That is not to say he had regard for other's safety, but not too many place to pass right at Ladera.

miyata man 06-14-17 11:44 PM

I might have been a little bit worn out and low on calories which led to a higher level of inebriation than usual last night when I initially typed this. Given my pinky-thumb wrists and skinny cyclists arms it was a lot of fun throwing fence and coming home sore.

The severity of crashes at this race is disturbing. Wide roads with rough surfaces are probably the issue. This pileup at 40+ last year was very ugly.



bitingduck 06-15-17 01:19 AM


Originally Posted by Doge (Post 19654467)
On that course - all rights, all sharp, he likely didn't want to take the right and give up his spot. That is not to say he had regard for other's safety, but not too many place to pass right at Ladera.

There was nobody around them - nobody was on his wheel, nobody was trying to take Walsh's wheel from him, and the riders behind them were far enough back to easily avoid the crash, and the race was up the road anyway. He didn't have a spot to worry about keeping.

TMonk 06-15-17 07:42 AM

I've raced Ladera a few times and I agree that he could have passed on the right. @Doge I'm not sure what you mean by give up his spot - whether he passed on the right or left he was gaining position.

miyata man 06-15-17 10:14 AM

Almost forgot. Do not park your team van with the doors hanging wide open a few feet off the race course with all of your riders valuables and a considerable amount of valuable equipment inside. Then walk off. It can provide a GATEWAY to a life of crime for young miscreants.

They mostly got their stuff back when the kids got bold and came back for a second armload.

himespau 06-15-17 10:35 AM


Originally Posted by miyata man (Post 19655266)
Almost forgot. Do not park your team van with the doors hanging wide open a few feet off the race course with all of your riders valuables and a considerable amount of valuable equipment inside. Then walk off. It can provide a GATEWAY to a life of crime for young miscreants.

They mostly got their stuff back when the kids got bold and came back for a second armload.

Wow, I'd love to hear the backstory on that.

Doge 06-15-17 10:36 AM


Originally Posted by TMonk (Post 19654893)
I've raced Ladera a few times and I agree that he could have passed on the right. @Doge I'm not sure what you mean by give up his spot - whether he passed on the right or left he was gaining position.

Again, I think this is rude riding, dangerous and DQable by some, not by others - but not enough there to convict criminally which is what some are calling for. I don't see Felony Battery here. https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2017...elony-battery/

That seems to be the corner before the traditional start finish in front of the school. The curb is where most folks ride and want to enter from the left. There are many times attacks to the inside too, but more riders prefer left setting up for the right turn. When the gap was closing again he wanted to make sure he got it at the cost of another rider's safety. But I don't see enough from that video to say he decided to take the rider out before he made his charge. The wet roads would also play into that.

I have lots of video of several different races at that venue.
(*I think* *I think*) @ 1:46 I'm standing about where the crash happened. 2015:
https://vimeo.com/129402401

2013 (not that the road is any different).
:24 is the corner they were approaching @:35

big john 06-15-17 06:14 PM

My friend who is 63 just completed his first Ironman length triathlon in 14:00. He was once a cat 2 crit and road racer. I was impressed.

big john 06-15-17 06:21 PM


Originally Posted by bitingduck (Post 19649300)
and these days I mostly just want to go out for a nice ride.

I haven't seen you in years, how you doin'? I did talk to Jay about you one day in the mountains. Do you ever do those rides? I mean like Bob's rides or the OCD group?

Ttoc6 06-15-17 11:52 PM

Another change of topic, but has anyone ridden in yellowstone? On my roadtrip to the new home, I'll be spending a night in the Lake Lodge. I was looking and it seems reasonable that I could do the main loop in the park (96 miles) if I get up early and get past Old faithful before too many tourists turn up.

Also, any suggestions for riding in Jackson, Wy?

miyata man 06-16-17 05:40 AM

Best practice: @tetonrider

From my own personal experience the largest deterrent to riding in or around Yellowstone is, besides rubber necking tourists or bison, an immense amount of camper trailers being towed by full sized pickups with mirrors that extend their already wide stance. A dozen of those coming down a narrow twisty descent behind you taxing their brakes is not a good time to be a road cyclist.

I personally would chance angry billionaires in Wilson or other surrounding areas and take in Teton National Park.

bitingduck 06-16-17 09:46 AM


Originally Posted by big john (Post 19656343)
I haven't seen you in years, how you doin'? I did talk to Jay about you one day in the mountains. Do you ever do those rides? I mean like Bob's rides or the OCD group?

I do some of them, but I don't like to get up early :)

Still around and riding though.

TheKillerPenguin 06-16-17 11:41 AM

Yo why do people hate so hard on Zoolander 2? It is absolutely stupid but nothing I didn't expect it to be.

aaronmcd 06-16-17 11:44 AM

Finally watched the video. Based on what I see (no slo-mo but repeated a bunch of times lol) I agree with these:

Originally Posted by mattm (Post 19653548)
I feel like he didn't necessarily mean to crash the other guy out, but didn't care if he did or not.. which doesn't make much of a difference, of course.


Originally Posted by globecanvas (Post 19653605)
Seeing the video with no other context, I'd think that as the guy tried to squeeze through he braced for a shoulder bump that never came, so instead his forearm went into the other guy's bars. And it was dumb to go inside anyway. Which would make the move reckless and stupid, rather than psychotic and homicidal.

If he wanted to crash the guy out it would have had less risk of crashing himself out if he'd just passed him and swept his wheel. Though I guess if you're ragey enough to want to crash somebody you're probably not being super analytical about it in the moment.

He seems shorter, maybe tried to squeeze down and left but "oh crap there's a curb and I can't quite make it, I'll just shove this moving obstacle out of my way..."


Originally Posted by Doge (Post 19654037)
Having officiated lots and lots of soccer games I see this all the time. Without injury, and some with - none in ICU with brain bleed.
But the read is difficult on this one as to intent. Generally the head/face gives away intent. There is a look confirming the deed was done, or a look before it was done. That did not happen here. It was clearly reckless. But slowmo shows things in a different light than in the moment. I'd like to see him penalized, but not ready to say he intended to take the other rider out. He DID take him out. Just the intent/pre-meditated part, I am not sure of.

To me it looks like he tried a gap, didn't think he could make it, saw a gap again took a run at it and seeing it close, didn't want to error on the side of safety and used his shoulder to throw his momentum the way he wanted. That there was also a curb on his left was more motivation to trow his mass the other direction. Otherwise he might have ended up down. I know that course pretty well, it is local and my kid's 1st Cat 3 crit win. There are lots of tight spots where if you are not lined up for position correctly, you will loose spots. Frankly - he's riding like a junior creating risk for others in his exuberance to win. It would not surprise me if he was jacked up on something - legal or not.

If it was me I might try left, but otoh it's a gamble, and if the door was closed I'd have to back off and lose momentum. Angry dude doesn't want to lose momentum so he goes for the squeeze. In the heat of the moment he shoves back, and from his position that caused a crash. It does not look like he intended to do anything until he went for the hole and couldn't make it. Also, I see no reason to think he intended to crash him out. In the heat of the moment I can imagine an angry shove, without thought to what would happen. Especially from someone who shoots the gap all the time. That's the kind of move that would be really easy to do all the time if one had no concern for other riders. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

mattm 06-16-17 11:54 AM


Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin (Post 19657570)
Yo why do people hate so hard on Zoolander 2? It is absolutely stupid but nothing I didn't expect it to be.

When I was 15, that whole franchise would've been really funny.

I hate on Zoolander 1 & 2. I don't judge you for liking it though.. well I do, but not too much!

bitingduck 06-16-17 11:58 AM


Originally Posted by aaronmcd (Post 19657576)
He seems shorter, maybe tried to squeeze down and left but "oh crap there's a curb and I can't quite make it, I'll just shove this moving obstacle out of my way..."

Ignoring the fact that he had a perfectly good line to the right, and that had he actually been trying to shoot the gap there was plenty of room to get through,he sticks his shoulder out a full four seconds before he makes contact. That's an eternity. Had he actually been trying to go through quickly he could have done it without making contact at all.

Watch for the previous 30-40 seconds before he does it - he's not even really trying to pass. He's trying to sit on the wheel and being sloppy about it and then apparently gets mad when his wheel sits up. If he were trying to pass he'd have done it right away and been gone up the road.

TheKillerPenguin 06-16-17 12:10 PM


Originally Posted by mattm (Post 19657602)
When I was 15, that whole franchise would've been really funny.

I hate on Zoolander 1 & 2. I don't judge you for liking it though.. well I do, but not too much!

Pssssh! Out of curiosity what is it like having a butt for a face???

PepeM 06-16-17 12:24 PM


Originally Posted by aaronmcd (Post 19657576)
If it was me I might try left, but otoh it's a gamble, and if the door was closed I'd have to back off and lose momentum.

Which is what he does a few seconds before. Then he goes and tries again but with his body prepared for contact.

All of this is over-analysis, of course. What he actually wanted to achieve, only he knows.

globecanvas 06-17-17 03:23 PM

A local-ish guy who I raced with a bunch a few years ago (I don't think he races much any more) is doing RAAM and is currently in 4th overall (out of 115), averaging 338 miles for each of the first 4 days. But first place is ahead of him by most of Kansas.

mattm 06-18-17 12:27 AM


Originally Posted by globecanvas (Post 19659591)
A local-ish guy who I've raced with a bunch is doing RAAM and is currently in 4th overall (out of 115), averaging 338 miles for each of the first 4 days. But first place is ahead of him by most of Kansas.

Wow - is he doing it solo?

Even with all the support they get, not something I'd ever attempt. A tough "course" no doubt.

globecanvas 06-18-17 08:09 AM


Originally Posted by mattm (Post 19660227)
Wow - is he doing it solo?

Yes, solo. He's actually losing ground a bit, he's 40 miles behind 3rd and there's a guy 30 miles behind him. Can you imagine how hard it would suck to race 1500 miles and then get passed by somebody?

RAAM 2017 live tracker by trackleaders.com

TheKillerPenguin 06-18-17 08:14 AM

Interesting to note that he's actually a pretty damn fast Cat 3, or was a couple of years ago anyway. RAAM is a truly crazy endeavor!

globecanvas 06-18-17 08:18 AM

From what I can tell, it rewards whoever is willing to forego the most sleep and put themselves in both imminent and lasting physical danger, without getting themselves into such a deep hole that they can't continue.

miyata man 06-18-17 09:55 AM

Happy Fathers Day, you proud dads here.

Especially Fudgy whose Strava feed I couldn't bring myself to litter.


"3rd is the new 4th"
One set of twins wasn't enough for you? How are you going to decide which one lives under the stairs this time?


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