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-   -   Recommended indoor training setup (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=1198553)

WegW85 04-18-20 04:39 AM

Recommended indoor training setup
 
Hi there, earlier this yeah I started the move from Rowing to track sprinting. Really enjoying it so far and now in this period of lockdown and looking toward the future I wanted to get some advice on a good home training setup w.r.t sprint workouts with resistance/metrics.

I currently have a good starter sprint frame with an entry level setup (with speed & cadence sensors) and a set of rollers I've been using to train on + an approx. 20 year old tacx classic turbo that I use for short intervals on my road bike. I currently don't own a powermeter for either setup and have a lot of problems with tyre slippage for high torque workouts/actual sprinting on the tacx turbo.

So I've been thinking about the best way to eventually upgrade my indoor setup (anticipating the length of the lockdown, change to training habits and actually needing it for training in the future anyway), ideally to use my track bike for high resistance sprint workouts and get relatively reliable power numbers. So far the best option I've seen from my research is a direct mount trainer with some sort of after-market adaptor. But I'm very aware I'm still quite new to this so if anyone has found success it'd be great to hear your advice.

Cheers!

Pantani98 04-18-20 06:43 AM

I've been using my road and mountain bike on my Wahoo KickR but am looking to pick up the conversion piece from Velobike to use my track bike on my KickR. https://www.velobike.co.nz/track-adaptors

WegW85 04-18-20 09:37 AM

Thanks, that's really good to hear! That's exactly the setup I'd been circling in on, was impressed with the velobike components and the relatively high max. watt rating of the direct kickr products (whereas was surprised by low ratings on things like the wattbike atom). Good to hear it's working well for you!

carpediemracing 04-18-20 09:45 PM

I'm no trackie but I'm looking to get into it. Based on other people's advice here and elsewhere I got a CycleOps 300 Pro, basically a stationary bike with a massive flywheel (22 kg), powermeter (PowerTap is inside the flywheel). It weighs a lot (I learned after the fact that it's 135 lbs at least, some places say 140 lbs but that may be shipping weight). I almost hurt myself bringing the gizmo up and down stairs to get it into my basement.

There is a 400 Pro version - that has a controllable resistance unit so it acts as a smart trainer, before the term was coined? I couldn't find one locally so I got the plentiful 300. The seller I bought from had maybe 10 sitting around in view and said he had 30 available.

I haven't done much other than set it up right now. However, for me, it has some interesting features:

1. It has an Ant+ computer so it broadcasts to Zwift. Based on that it'll automatically sync with Strava (and save my data on the cloud somewhere). I use Golden Cheetah for my SRM so I can open files in that and have one place to look at power data.
2. It has a PowerTap so it should be relatively accurate.
3. Apparently it can mimic standing start efforts. (*Note below)
4. Around here they're about $500 used, $400 seems low, $700 high. I paid $500.
5. It'll take regular pedals and saddle. Bar is not optimal and not replaceable (at this point).

* Note: literally the first thing I tried when I had it all set up was a standing start. Problem is that on track you want to put your weight over your front axle. On the CycleOps 300 the "front axle" is in front of the front legs, meaning if you lean forward enough you'll flip the entire 300 onto the bars. I almost did that, momentarily picturing a 135 lbs trainer landing on my butt as the rear feet went up into the air. Luckily I managed to recover and the rear feet landed on the floor with a large bang. I haven't tried any efforts since; I'll hack something together to prevent that forward flip.

For me, since I'm short, I need the bars lower (may contribute to the flipping forward). I cut down the head tube a bit, which went surprisingly well. I have to put on a saddle and I'm going to look into hacking the bars so I can put a regular stem/bars on, but I'll use as is as soon as I get the anti-flip thing squared away.

Trainer, at the trade show when they were introduced:
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4097459d9d.jpg
CycleOps 400 Pro - a "smart trainer" version. If on Zwift this would be a controllable trainer. 2009 Interbike, picture I took.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bd291f45ae.jpg
CycleOps 300 Pro - "dumb" trainer version. This is mine, modified with lower head tube. Not yet complete - need saddle, anti-tip thing (maybe long bars attached lengthwise to the feet?).

carpediemracing 04-18-20 09:48 PM

Also this site for me has been a treasure of info. They talk about putting grip tape on the roller of regular trainers (link below). They also address a lot of other stuff.

01 - Overview ? Up! Up! Up! An introduction to track sprint cycling

Morelock 04-19-20 08:41 AM

Lots of good options out there these days. Velobike (and others) make adapters for the direct mount trainers that allow you to use a track bike on it. You can get a good feel on the options with DCRainmakers reviews.
The trainers like carpediemracing posted also make good dedicated trainer setups, and you eliminate any sweat hazard/etc to your racing bike. They are also pretty cheap, especially the "dumb" versions. (you can always remedy that with pedals that have power) Obviously with these you can spend as deep as you want with Wattbike/etc making high end versions with lots of bells and whistles.
Another cheap option is an old Computrainer. People will practically give them away now, and there are plenty of 20+ year old CT's out there that have ran in studios daily with very little upkeep/maintenance. The downside to them is that they are wired as opposed to ANT+/Bluetooth, and Racermate is out of business, so you are relying on old or NOS parts when you do need something.
You also have the wheel on... so you'll need a tire for it,etc.

All depends on the budget and what you are comfortable living with.

topflightpro 04-20-20 07:31 AM

CDR - A couple 80lb bags of concrete on the rear legs should prevent the bike from tipping when doing starts. You may have to put them in garbage bags or wrap them in duct tape to keep them from tearing open.

carleton 04-21-20 11:46 AM

I'm a huge guy and very "top heavy". My guess is that if you are about to tip over, you are leaning too far forward.

I've seen guys try to do textbook standing starts and think, "put the nose on the tire" and that's not the way to do it. It should feel more like a deadlift than launching off the wall of a swimming pool.

The CycleOps is an amazing spin bike. On par with the Wattbike (IMHO). If you happen to have one that has a freewheel, you can contact CycleOps and order a fixed hub for it for a small fee. They all used to be fixed, then a few years ago, they started shipping with freewheels. But, the freewheel versions can be retro-fitted with fixed hubs.

brawlo 04-21-20 07:02 PM

Firstly, 3M stair grip tape will solve most of your grip issues. I ran it on my Kurt trainer for a long time and it lasts years, almost kills slippage, but it does create a big mess. I ended up knurling my roller which solved both the grip and mess issues. I also only ever used standard road tyres that I had retired from my road bike, I never used a proper trainer tyre even though I had one on hand. I ended up giving it away.

I have used a "dumb" spin trainer, my Kurt Kinetic fluid trainer and the Kickr. 100% if you have the money I would just go straight to the Kickr. If you want to go for the velobike adapter, all good, it's your money and it does look like a decent bit of kit. IMO you will get more bang for your buck buying a cheap 2nd hand road bike to permanently leave in your trainer. You can adjust the position of that to get somewhat closer to your track bike, but using your track bike on the trainer isn't really that big of a deal as far as position goes, but I wouldn't have it set up wildly different from your track position. Having a road bike set up in your trainer just opens up a whole lot more training options to you. Go for Upupup workouts on it, but you can use zwift or other platforms to vary your training and the short 10km races are great for sprinter cardio workouts and for the current life circumstances we are dealing with. Even the top level guys are riding on Zwift ATM

TDinBristol 04-27-20 05:46 AM

Brawlo,
How do you knurl the roller on a trainer?
I have the Kurt Kinetic with heavy flywheel, and I do use the green trainer tire, which I find does make a difference (and have sprayed fan-belt conditioner on it, which helps, too). But I still get some slippage on hard efforts. But I prefer this type of trainer because I have bikes with 8 and 11-speed setups, as well as track bikes, and I can use any of them as I need to.
.

topflightpro 04-27-20 07:08 AM

Borrowed my wife's Kickr this weekend. I think it may do the trick, though I needed to pile some stuff on it to keep me from pulling it off the ground when doing hard starts.

brawlo 04-27-20 05:52 PM


Originally Posted by TDinBristol (Post 21441276)
Brawlo,
How do you knurl the roller on a trainer?
I have the Kurt Kinetic with heavy flywheel, and I do use the green trainer tire, which I find does make a difference (and have sprayed fan-belt conditioner on it, which helps, too). But I still get some slippage on hard efforts. But I prefer this type of trainer because I have bikes with 8 and 11-speed setups, as well as track bikes, and I can use any of them as I need to.
.

It's a warranty voiding exercise, so if that scares you off then just stick with tape. You have to pull it apart and get the roller off and then get someone to put a knurler over it on a lathe. The guys that did mine didn't make it very aggressive and I had doubts but they didn't charge me so I just took it. Damn thing slips less than the grip tape. It's awesome. I still was getting a very small amount of rubber thrown off the tyre, but it was about 0.001% of what was thrown from using grip tape.

Note: I pulled the fluid unit apart to get the centre spindle/axle out, but from memory I'm pretty sure after doing that I found that I didn't actually have to do it that way, but I can't remember now what that way was

Morelock 04-28-20 06:57 AM

seems like something like hockey tape (or maybe woven electrical tape) would eliminate a lot of slip without quite as much tire chewing as grip tape.

brawlo 04-28-20 07:43 PM


Originally Posted by Morelock (Post 21443364)
seems like something like hockey tape (or maybe woven electrical tape) would eliminate a lot of slip without quite as much tire chewing as grip tape.

Worth a trial but I doubt it would survive. The 3M tape has a fairly course grit, so I tried another tape that was finer. The other tape was worn through after 4 sessions. The 3M tape lasted 2 years and at that time I was doing at least 2 sessions on the trainer per week so literally hundreds of standing start efforts and slow rolling accelerations.

Morelock 04-29-20 06:50 AM


Originally Posted by brawlo (Post 21444660)
Worth a trial but I doubt it would survive. The 3M tape has a fairly course grit, so I tried another tape that was finer. The other tape was worn through after 4 sessions. The 3M tape lasted 2 years and at that time I was doing at least 2 sessions on the trainer per week so literally hundreds of standing start efforts and slow rolling accelerations.

hah! oh, I didn't consider leaving it on ~indefinitely... I was thinking applying per session it'd be useful (albeit, the number of times I do pmax+ efforts is low) I might try it out on my computrainer one day.

TDinBristol 04-29-20 07:08 AM


Originally Posted by brawlo (Post 21442676)
It's a warranty voiding exercise, so if that scares you off then just stick with tape. You have to pull it apart and get the roller off and then get someone to put a knurler over it on a lathe. The guys that did mine didn't make it very aggressive and I had doubts but they didn't charge me so I just took it. Damn thing slips less than the grip tape. It's awesome. I still was getting a very small amount of rubber thrown off the tyre, but it was about 0.001% of what was thrown from using grip tape.

Note: I pulled the fluid unit apart to get the centre spindle/axle out, but from memory I'm pretty sure after doing that I found that I didn't actually have to do it that way, but I can't remember now what that way was

Thanks, Brawlo. I'll likely leave well enough alone, but it's good to have the option.

carleton 05-01-20 04:11 PM

One thing to keep in mind when building a home training setup is the relationship between torque and cadence THAT is what you are training. You have to match the torque with the cadence for a given effort for best results.

Fluid trainers are designed to require an exponential amount of torque as speed increases. This is to mimic air resistance (also exponential). They donít really care what your cadence is.

Fluid trainers were designed with road bikes in mind and thus, the rider will switch gears to manage the torque, cadence, speed relationship.

So, if you ever feel like you are in the wrong gear when doing an effort on your fluid trainer using your track bike, you are correct. This is the equivalent of doing an entire workout (including warmups) with the same gear on.

How do trackies manage this? Use a mag or friction (same thing) trainer.

Another benefit of friction trainers is the instant-on feature allows you to simulate motorpaced efforts where a bike brings you up to speed and then, at high cadence, you have to ďcome aroundĒ in the wind (high air resistance).

You canít do that with fluid trainers. It would be like you getting up to speed on your own with no motorbike.

carleton 05-01-20 04:13 PM

Iíve owned and trained on high-end (at the time) fluid trainers, and the lesser mag trainers were actually better for track training for the reasons mentioned above.


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