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-   -   Buying into the hype... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=1200655)

Chrisp72 05-07-20 06:02 PM

Buying into the hype...
 
I'm sure to get a lot of different opinions but here goes...

Is there a large group of people who tour who believe in all the marketing hype? Part of the reason for me that touring is an interest is that there isn't a crazy demand for it, at least in my eyes. There aren't many consumption magazines that tout the latest bike as the best solution. The reason I'm asking is because I had some comments on another post, not in this group, of someone wanting to get the new Shimano 12 speed 1x drivetrain for bike packing. I like components that are proven for their intended purpose but I don't buy into the latest and greatest until it trickles down from the top tier groups. Am I a retro grouch now?

Steve B. 05-07-20 06:55 PM


Originally Posted by Chrisp72 (Post 21461853)
f someone wanting to get the new Shimano 12 speed 1x drivetrain for bike packing. I like components that are proven for their intended purpose but I don't buy into the latest and greatest until it trickles down from the top tier groups. Am I a retro grouch now?

Shimano mt. bike 12 speed has trickled down to the 3rd tier SLX groups, equal to 105 road and it's a very reasonably priced and functional group, so not a bad upgrade if you pair it with a better designed Sunrace cassette. A 12 spd. 1x SLX upgrade kit is a very reasonable $220.

Bikepackers as well are often times mt. bikers and they tend to be susceptible to "upgrade-itis", IME. When I want something new for my mt. bike my local FB and website pages for my mt. bike club are the first place I look.

Papa Tom 05-07-20 07:16 PM

The thing I have learned from shooting my mouth off in these forums and being called out for it is that we all need to just ride our own bike and leave everybody else alone.

I, personally, have toured, commuted, and recreated on the same $300 bike thousands of miles since 1996 and have replaced its components multiple times with parts that are consistently ten or twenty-percent junkier than the ones before them. I just paid $7.00 for an entire braking system and the bike stops just fine. The only thing that has gotten slower and less efficient over the past 24 years is ME.

Lots of people find pleasure in constantly upgrading their gear, their clothing, and their technique. I don't, but I'm really happy that other people are finding pleasure in SOMETHING as the world goes to crap.

IPassGas 05-07-20 08:13 PM

Blessed are the square tapers, for thou shall ride forever.

robow 05-07-20 08:21 PM

In the bike industry, of which bicycle touring is an extremely small subset (though we wish it wasn't so), occasionally you do get an innovation that truly makes our lives better. But unfortunately IMO, we often get change almost for the sake of change itself, creating planned obsolescence. How else do you get the masses to buy new stuff ?

skookum 05-07-20 08:23 PM


Originally Posted by IPassGas (Post 21462084)
Blessed are the square tapers, for thou shall ride forever.

lol

I was trying to figure out how to get the crank off a bike, and I needed to buy another tool, and I thought, "square taper worked fine, why did they have to get rid of it?"

Doge 05-07-20 08:31 PM

I'm a many year marketing and product marketing guy. It is pretty accepted people buy on emotion and justify on logic. You need a hook - hype.
But for many, in many different things it is more than riding. It may be posting about it, posting power, posting pictures or having and building cool new stuff, or cool old stuff.

Someone that does not understand that may be seen as a narrow minded retro grouch.

boomhauer 05-07-20 08:34 PM

If you can get the range you want out of a 1x12 I don't think it is marketing hype at all. Life without a front derailleur is an improvement.

Trevtassie 05-07-20 08:39 PM

Problem is, sometimes technology stops trickling down. Like triples and 9 speed for example. You can't buy quality new items, it's being steadily downgraded out of the product range of Shimano, for example. Probably because touring just isn't a big market and it is specialised.

downtube42 05-07-20 08:54 PM

There are early adopters, who want to try new things and will pay for that benefit. There are second adopters - the bulk of us - who will use the new things when they have been vetted by the early adopters. There are late adopters, who will go with the less old when the truly old is no longer available. Humility and self awareness go a long way towards understanding what's going on in these conversations. Those are not common traits.

alo 05-07-20 09:08 PM

I do what is sensible, and am not concerned what people say.

For example, I ride bikes rescued from the trash.

saddlesores 05-07-20 11:42 PM


Originally Posted by Chrisp72 (Post 21461853)
Part of the reason for me that touring is an interest is that there isn't a crazy demand for it


Originally Posted by Chrisp72 (Post 21461853)
I had some comments on another post, not in this group, of someone wanting to get


Originally Posted by Chrisp72 (Post 21461853)
Am I a retro grouch now?


that's all i wanted to say about this.

i'm gonna go ride my bike now.

indyfabz 05-08-20 03:48 AM


Originally Posted by saddlesores (Post 21462289)
that's all i wanted to say about this.

i'm gonna go ride my bike now.

I know what youíre saying, and thatís all Iíve got to say about that.

elcruxio 05-08-20 04:04 AM


Originally Posted by boomhauer (Post 21462130)
If you can get the range you want out of a 1x12 I don't think it is marketing hype at all. Life without a front derailleur is an improvement.

Yes and no. Touring / bikepacking with a mountain bike in challenging terrain or even on dirt roads, definitely.

For road touring I prefer a double or perhaps in the future again even a triple as the 12 speed wide cassette gives gear jumps that in my opinion are just too large for pure road touring. This of course with the assumption that the gearing is wide enough to provide a proper low gear for steep hills. A tight 12-speed cassette would of course not have this issue, but you'd either limit your low gearing or max speed severely. With a 1x11 I always got the feeling that I'm never in quite the correct gear and with my current 1x12 bikes the feeling isn't much different. Though I'll admit that I have only toured with a 1x11 but own two 1x12 bikes one of which is for road use and one is four mountain biking.

Chrisp72 05-08-20 06:21 AM


Originally Posted by Papa Tom (Post 21461983)
The thing I have learned from shooting my mouth off in these forums and being called out for it is that we all need to just ride our own bike and leave everybody else alone.

I, personally, have toured, commuted, and recreated on the same $300 bike thousands of miles since 1996 and have replaced its components multiple times with parts that are consistently ten or twenty-percent junkier than the ones before them. I just paid $7.00 for an entire braking system and the bike stops just fine. The only thing that has gotten slower and less efficient over the past 24 years is ME.

Lots of people find pleasure in constantly upgrading their gear, their clothing, and their technique. I don't, but I'm really happy that other people are finding pleasure in SOMETHING as the world goes to crap.

Papa Tom...I do my best to not be judgy when it comes to people's bikes and preferences. I realize that there are many ways to solve a problem and many ways of looking at things. I do appreciate perspective, especially that which is not my own. I suppose there's a place for all sorts of bikers in all sorts of groups. I suspect at some point I'll have to replace my new to me touring bike and who knows what will be available at that time. I'm sure there will be many factors that go into the decision of what to buy when that time comes. I don't think my wallet will allow me to buy the newest of the new and I'm content to be a few generations back from the cutting edge. Plus, I think it's wise to wait for something to be torture tested by many people to see how it holds up in he real world. CAD programs can only get you so far. One of my favourite places is a used bike shop called Our Community Bikes in Vancouver British Columbia. They sell used parts from donations and have many social programs to help people learn how to work on their own bikes. They provide tools to people who wish to wrench on their bikes. It's awesome.

I appreciate the usage of one bike over the years. I want to try to wear out parts and then have to replace them. These are goals for now. I want to ride what I have and when things get better I will. Until then I want to get as much info about what I'm getting into as I can. Ultimately the road will make the decisions for me once I start on my journey.

Keep well and stay safe.

Miele Man 05-08-20 06:49 AM

I like the Old School stuff for simplicity and durability. I've bought a number of vintage MTBs at $40.00 CDN each so I could have spare Deore chainrings, derailleurs and shifters. Most of those parts go onto a dropbar MTB conversion used as a touring bike. I now have a stash of slighty used Old School Deore components that'll last me the rest of my days. Some of those are Deer Head Deore.

I lke index shifting and i think it's one of the greatest inventions since the advent of the pneumatic tire. I love my Campagnolo Ergo 9-speed Mirage shifters on my touring bike and on my Miele Suprema road bike.They raise shifting to a whole new level.

Cheers

Chrisp72 05-08-20 07:08 AM


Originally Posted by Miele Man (Post 21462512)
I like the Old School stuff for simplicity and durability. I've bought a number of vintage MTBs at $40.00 CDN each so I could have spare Deore chainrings, derailleurs and shifters. Most of those parts go onto a dropbar MTB conversion used as a touring bike. I now have a stash of slighty used Old School Deore components that'll last me the rest of my days. Some of those are Deer Head Deore.

I lke index shifting and i think it's one of the greatest inventions since the advent of the pneumatic tire. I love my Campagnolo Ergo 9-speed Mirage shifters on my touring bike and on my Miele Suprema road bike.They raise shifting to a whole new level.

Cheers

Miele Man... I have to say that cost is a big driver for myself as well. I scan places like Kijiji and Pinkbike regularly to find things I need/want. I like digging through parts bins as you never know what you will find. There's a place called Bikesauce in Toronto that scratches the hunt for parts itch, even though they're a far drive now. I like certain parts and having bike stuff so buying complete bikes makes total sense to me. I bought an older MTB for the barends and donated the rest of the parts I didn't need. As much as I want to have bicycle stuff my space is limited now. No garage bin full of older components as much as I enjoyed having them when I could. You never know when you'll need something.

I had a love for Shimano SPD's for a while and appreciated the fact that the off road models continuously used the same cleat, meaning all the cleats I accumulated over the years were still viable. That's the kind of longevity that makes investing in something worthwhile. I liked that cleats were available everywhere so you could get them cheap if you looked around for a bargain.

Ride safe.

av1 05-08-20 07:30 AM

Bike industry is in the business of making profits, not just making bikes. The aim is to make you spend money one way or another, the more you spend the better The very first rule of marketing is to make you belive that you need the product. For some folks not being around on the latest greatest standard may even lead to a serious psychological issues of low esteem and dissatisfaction which has nothing to do with the actual properties of a product.

bakerjw 05-08-20 09:32 AM

I'm really into bikepacking and I do all of my builds on tried and true component sets. Primarily they are always Shimano XT/XTR 2x10 components. I have extra chain rings around so that I can tweak the front end up or down to adjust ratios as needed.
My fun mountain bike has 24/36 up front.
My bikepacking bike has 24/40 up front. It is at the edge of what should work but it gives me a good top end on smoother surfaces
Our mountain tandem has 22/36 up front. Great when we have to grind up a 10% grade when loaded.

Tourist in MSN 05-08-20 11:05 AM

There are enough people in some of the cycling segments like road biking or time trial/triathalon biking or the major mountain biking segments, or now the new thing is gravel biking, that manufacturers put together a complete group of components that are designed to work really well with each other. Touring is not a large enough group that manufacturers specifically put together a package of parts for it.

Thus, the history of bike touring for the past few decades is mixing and matching road and mountain bike parts so that you can get the lower gearing you want and better braking you need on a touring bike that rides and handles like a road bike (although heavier and slower) with drop bars.

That worked great. Until it didn't work so well when mountain and road cable pull per shift were not compatible any more. And mountain brakes had a different cable pull than road brakes.

And globally, drop bars are favored in USA, but often flat bars are favored in continental Europe, so you can find that even a preferred touring package might have regional characteristics. So even if manufacturers made the perfect touring setup, it would not sell well around the globe.


Originally Posted by Chrisp72 (Post 21461853)
...
... I had some comments on another post, not in this group, of someone wanting to get the new Shimano 12 speed 1x drivetrain for bike packing. I like components that are proven for their intended purpose but I don't buy into the latest and greatest until it trickles down from the top tier groups. Am I a retro grouch now?

There are advantages and disadvantages to both 1X systems and multi-chainring systems. In general, a 1X is limited in total range from lowest to highest gear, that range simply is how much bigger the biggest sprocket is compared to the smallest. But the 2X or 3X systems offered a wider range, but are a bit heavier, cost more, take more time to setup well and maintain, etc.

And, there is an advantage to having a sequential single shifter like on a 1X system that goes from your lowest gear to your highest gear. You really do not have to think about which shifter to shift when you want to change gears, thus some people will prefer a 1X system for that reason too.

There was a long thread a few months ago on 1X systems vs systems that have a double or triple crank. It covers the topic of 1X and double/triple crank options really well. Check it out.
https://www.bikeforums.net/touring/1...ring-bike.html

Chrisp72 05-08-20 02:34 PM

I'm thinking I just have to experience the bike I have before really contemplating a new drivetrain system. I like the discussion around certain topics and getting opinions on various things as it's a good way to learn.

I try to be a little more frugal now that I'm out of work and I don't know if that will change. I like getting value for money and very often getting older equipment in good shape leads to surprises ie, when buying a new to me bike. It's cheap and the components can be a higher quality imho. Maybe I'll learn about newer equipment through more questions and discussions and be swayed into trying something else. I usually can't afford the newest and if I could I would have issues dropping so much money on something that I could get a lot cheaper if someone else had bought it new. I have been invested in the touring bike I have and purchased some items for it specifically. Now it's just a matter of following through and trying out what I have. After that I'm sure I will have ideas of what worked and what didn't.

There is a thread about the "new" Trek 520 that talks about how newer trends in bicycling haven't been the best for Biketouring. Again this can also be perceived as opinions and views as many people see things differently. The changes to cycling trends have made for an arguably worse touring bike in the 520 and it's an interesting read.

I need to get myself on the road and test out everything. That's the only way to really know how it's going to be.

Steve B. 05-08-20 03:04 PM


Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN (Post 21463066)
s. In general, a 1X is limited in total range from lowest to highest gear, that range simply is how much bigger the biggest sprocket is compared to the smallest. But the 2X or 3X systems offered a wider range, but are a bit heavier, cost more, take more time to setup well and maintain, etc.
l

A Shimano 10-51 12spd. cassette paired with say a 1X with a 36 ring, gives a decent low range - 18-99 gear inches, as my triple system, 12-34 9spd., 26-36-46 rings, just has 3 fewer gears in the middle (and mine only goes to 20 inches). So it's never really been the range, its more that there are fewer gears on a 12 spd cassette system period. And it's not like there's a plethora of different 12 spd. cassettes available, the Shimano line has 2 and all are oriented towards 1X systems.

Shimano has somewhat fixed the miss-match of road systems and mountain systems with the GRX group, having brifters mated to rear derailers and cassettes with almost the range of an XT group. Unfortunately it's an extraordinarily expensive group, easily 20% or so higher than Ultegra for component costs as far as I can figure. I can see where it's driving marketing managers nuts as they try to build touring and gravel bikes with this system and cannot make a price point.

I would suspect that if you were building up your own touring bike, it would be cheaper to source NOS 9 spd. triple stuff with spares, than do a new 2X GRX system.

staehpj1 05-08-20 03:26 PM


Originally Posted by skookum (Post 21462099)
I was trying to figure out how to get the crank off a bike, and I needed to buy another tool, and I thought, "square taper worked fine, why did they have to get rid of it?"

Yeah, I have been touring on square taper bottom brackets and they work fine. On the other hand, they are heavier and the tools are heavier than the tools for some of the other choices. I'll continue to use them on my existing bikes, but I doubt I'd set up a new bike that way unless the point of the bike was to go retro.

Tourist in MSN 05-08-20 06:12 PM

Three years ago I built up a new touring bike, square taper triple and an eight speed 11-32 cassette.

My rando bike has a triple and eight speed 11-32 cassette, I find that gearing is often easier for me to use than my road bike with a 10 speed cassette and compact double crank. The triple with eight speed has a lower low, a higher high, and and it works very smoothly.

Last winter before the phrase social distancing was invented I picked up two more spare XT eight speed M739 rear derailleurs at a swap meet. And last summer I bought a NOS triple square taper crank to put on the shelf as a spare.

I have to pull the crank arms off my S&S bike to pack it, the XLC square taper crank arm puller is quite small and light, it works wtih a 15mm pedal wrench. And that pedal wrench is built into my S&S coupler wrench.

djb 05-08-20 07:22 PM

I get being critical of the hype, biking always has had hype, and I figure touring stuff tends to follow that balance of functionality vs cost/value thing, hence the deore standard of stuff that works great, good price, lasts a long time and can be replaced in any city in the world.

BUT I'm open to new stuff.
my first bike with outboard bottom bracket , hollow tech 2 , has shown me that even with me stripping the used bike I bought for my Latin American trips and reinstalling the bb myself, it has worked flawlessly for three trips, plus other riding, and still spins wonderfully smoothly and with less friction than my other bikes, all square taper. And this bb must have 8000kms on it.
Same with disc brakes, like we've discussed on other threads Chris, I'm fine using rim brakes, but am impressed with mechanical discs and how long pads last for me.

but I'm certainly not buying into 1x stuff, not for touring. Off road maybe but I don't do enough of it seriously.


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