What would you do? TT to ST tube diameters
Hi everyone! I'm new to the forums and also new to framebuilding.
I was wondering if someone could help me in regards to joining Top Tube and Seat Tube. For some reason I've been designing the frame with a 31.7mm TT and a 29.6mm ST but that doesn't feel like a great joint to me. What would you do? Would you get a smaller TT or a wider ST or maybe not do anything about it? Even tubes with the same diameter feels like it won't be ideal right? It's a gravel type of bike Noticed I wasn't allowed to post images yet. Doh! Thanks guys! |
Welcome to the forum. You can post a picture in your gallery and someone will rescue it for you.
I would either use a bigger seat tube or a smaller top tube. Your tubes are strange sizes, standard is 28.6 and 31.7. The issue with 31.7 is availability of seat posts, although you can shim them. |
I often will ovalize the top tube vertically to give more area for a fillet. Doesn't take much.
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Hi and thanks! I've uploaded an image to my album if anyone is interested in taking a look.
Originally Posted by unterhausen
(Post 21623160)
Welcome to the forum. You can post a picture in your gallery and someone will rescue it for you.
I would either use a bigger seat tube or a smaller top tube. Your tubes are strange sizes, standard is 28.6 and 31.7. The issue with 31.7 is availability of seat posts, although you can shim them.
Originally Posted by David Tollefson
(Post 21623167)
I often will ovalize the top tube vertically to give more area for a fillet. Doesn't take much.
Appreciate the help! |
I ovalize using my vise and soft jaws. Just at the end. Sometimes I'll do a downtube vertically at the HT and horizontally at the BB. Anyway, you only need to do a few inches worth of the tube, BEFORE mitering.
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Originally Posted by David Tollefson
(Post 21623267)
I ovalize using my vise and soft jaws. Just at the end. Sometimes I'll do a downtube vertically at the HT and horizontally at the BB. Anyway, you only need to do a few inches worth of the tube, BEFORE mitering.
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link to Aldatroid's pic
https://www.bikeforums.net/g/picture/18723578 https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9a9a1e4ad6.jpg |
One option is to leave the tube diameters as planned but have the TT miter's ears cut flat/vertical and then have the seat stays tops butt/flow into the TT. If done well the stays flow into the sides of the TT with no edge or step. Of course this means that the stays will not butt into the ST below the TT as the imaged plan shows. Andy (who never really likes the fast back stay style even after owning a couple of early 1970s Raleigh Pros)
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Ah yes, good point, thanks for the input. I'm planning on having the seat stays join where the TT intersects with the ST, i just move the stays down to illustrate the issue =)
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Or you could just fill the gap with filler.
Have you checked for side tire clearance with fastback stays? Are you using s-bend seat stays? Side tacked seat stays offer significantly more clearance if they are straight. |
Working on a full scale drawing now so will know soon enough but I have s-bent stays I'm planning on using so should be fine.
I might be over thinking it, this being my first frame but I'd love for it to look decent at least =) |
Originally Posted by Aldatroid
(Post 21624732)
I might be over thinking it, this being my first frame but I'd love for it to look decent at least =)
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A 31.7 TT seems oversized for such a small frame. Are you around 5'8"? Unless you're a really powerful rider or pretty heavy or both, I'd suggest moving to a 28.6 TT and 31.7 DT. Then you don't have to worry about ovalizing the TT to fit the ST.
Also, with a front center of 606 if you're using large 700c tires you'll likely be flirting with toe overlap. Some riders don't mind it, but I hate it. One solution is to push out the front end and shorten the stem. If you're running 650b then you'll probably be fine, but it's something to consider nonetheless. |
I've done several frames with those same tubes and slightly ovalizing works well. I've also just rounded the ears with a file and then flattened them slightly to make good contact with the seat tube for brazing/welding. As was already mentioned, you can line up the seat stay joint with the ears of the top tube and flow the fillets into each other to cover the ears of the top tube. Otherwise, it looks just fine with an external fillet that transitions into an internal fillet at the ears, as long as you round the ears nicely before you braze it.
This issue is much easier to deal with if you are welding. This picture is a 35mm top tube welded to a 32mm seat tube. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7d5786e98f.jpg I'll second the suggestion to push the front end out and run a shorter stem. I'm 5'7" and I design my personal gravel bikes to use a 50mm stem for several reasons, the least of which is toe overlap. |
Originally Posted by niknak
(Post 21625373)
A 31.7 TT seems oversized for such a small frame. Are you around 5'8"? Unless you're a really powerful rider or pretty heavy or both, I'd suggest moving to a 28.6 TT and 31.7 DT. Then you don't have to worry about ovalizing the TT to fit the ST.
Also, with a front center of 606 if you're using large 700c tires you'll likely be flirting with toe overlap. Some riders don't mind it, but I hate it. One solution is to push out the front end and shorten the stem. If you're running 650b then you'll probably be fine, but it's something to consider nonetheless. Yeah around 5'8" and I’ll be putting a pair of 650b 47c tires on there. Last time I checked the drawings it looked ok with the toe overlap but I’ll double check that because it’s also something I’d like to avoid. |
Originally Posted by dsaul
(Post 21625418)
I'll second the suggestion to push the front end out and run a shorter stem. I'm 5'7" and I design my personal gravel bikes to use a 50mm stem for several reasons, the least of which is toe overlap.
I like the idea of a little less weight on the front wheel so it will float better and possibly reducing the feeling of not going over the handlebars. Although I don't think that is a big factor in my riding. Anything else recommending it? |
Originally Posted by unterhausen
(Post 21625467)
I haven't gotten used to the look of a short stem yet, but I like to run randoneur bags on all my bikes and a short stem makes that work a lot better.
I like the idea of a little less weight on the front wheel so it will float better and possibly reducing the feeling of not going over the handlebars. Although I don't think that is a big factor in my riding. Anything else recommending it? Short stems seem to offend people who are accustomed to seeing "proper" drop bar bikes as having a long stem. A lot of people also mistakenly believe that a short stem will negatively affect the handling of the bike. |
Thanks, I'll have to see if I feel more confident on steep rocky descents on my new bike, if I ever manage to finish it. Mostly I worry about not being able to see because the rocks have shaken my helmet over my eyes. I definitely don't like wheel flop.
Originally Posted by dsaul
(Post 21625562)
Short stems seem to offend people who are accustomed to seeing "proper" drop bar bikes as having a long stem. A lot of people also mistakenly believe that a short stem will negatively affect the handling of the bike.
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Pushed the front center a bit and change the HT angle to 71 instead of 70.5, now I have a trail of almost 64, before it was closer to 70. I've been going over all the number again and some of them have changed quite a bit actually. Should be closer to what I'm looking for.
I've uploaded a second picture to my album and inching closer to those 10 posts as well so I can post pictures =) |
Trail of 64mm is pretty much what I aim for if possible with 700c wheels. Andy
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Thanks unterhausen!
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The front end looks good. The saddle height looks low for a 5'8" rider and the standover looks too high, if you have input the correct value for that. I would check on that standover(769mm on the drawing) and change the top tube angle to get some standover clearance.
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Originally Posted by dsaul
(Post 21627089)
The front end looks good. The saddle height looks low for a 5'8" rider and the standover looks too high, if you have input the correct value for that. I would check on that standover(769mm on the drawing) and change the top tube angle to get some standover clearance.
Thanks! |
I have a similar inseam and my saddle height (680.5 on your drawing) is over 700mm. I won't say how much over, because my position is a bit higher than the standard saddle height formulas would suggest. On RattleCad this is important, because the seat tube angle changes as a result of placing your saddle at the desired height and setback. In other words, as you raise the saddle, it also goes further back and RattleCad will make the seat tube angle steeper to keep the desired amount of setback.
As for the standover, it just stood out to me as the drawing shows the frame being 10.26mm over your set value. If that height works on your other frames, its not a problem. |
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