Downhill technique: Flairing one's knee
I've been looking for techniques to improve downhill speed and noticed that professional riders point their inside knee into the turn. In other words, if the curve is to the right, they flair their right knee away from the bike.
Why is this done and how does it help? Is the objective to somehow shift one's center of gravity? |
I'm no professional, so I'm gonna guess two things: Unloading the inside pedal, as most of the rider's weight should be on the outside pedal, and the angling of the knee is to allow the torso to get lower to the ground, lowering the center of gravity.
Or maybe it's just more comfortable. I've always angled the inside knee toward the turn unconsciously. Though it seems easier to load the outside pedal with the inner leg "kicked out." |
Partly because it feels good, sometimes because it also indicates turn intent if done early. I think.
Motorcyclists do it to gauge lean angle, but this tactic doesn't apply to road bikes. If the bicycle is leaned far enough that you can touch the ground with your knee, you've already slid out. (And, dragging a bare or lycra-clad knee against pavement would be a poor choice regardless.) It doesn't seem to create any problems, so go ahead and do it if you like doing it. |
I’m pretty sure your leg naturally falls that way, no? If you lean, gravity pulls your leg outward.
You could keep your knee in, but then you’re fighting gravity. It’s not stable. Pushing your knee outward is basically going with the flow. Or maybe we just like to think we’re motoGP riders, who put their knees out to know when they’re about to scrape hard parts :) One time I railed a corner harder than I anticipated and unclipped my foot :twitchy: I’ve reined in that habit since but I still do it. |
Originally Posted by smashndash
(Post 21360084)
I’m pretty sure your leg naturally falls that way, no? If you lean, gravity pulls your leg outward.
You could keep your knee in, but then you’re fighting gravity. It’s not stable. Pushing your knee outward is basically going with the flow. |
Originally Posted by DrIsotope
(Post 21360075)
I'm no professional, so I'm gonna guess two things: Unloading the inside pedal, as most of the rider's weight should be on the outside pedal, and the angling of the knee is to allow the torso to get lower to the ground, lowering the center of gravity.
Or maybe it's just more comfortable. I've always angled the inside knee toward the turn unconsciously. Though it seems easier to load the outside pedal with the inner leg "kicked out." |
Originally Posted by Robert A
(Post 21360096)
I'm not entirely sure that's correct. When you're in turn, I believe the center of gravity is down the center of the bike, not outward into the center of the turn.
Also... what do you mean the center of gravity is down the center of the bike? I’m fairly certain that is not true except when you are going in a straight line. |
Originally Posted by Robert A
(Post 21360099)
Please explain why the rider's weight should be on the outside pedal and not the inside one. Is there a benefit to shifting one's weight to the outside of the turn?
The reason you would put weight on the pedal instead of your saddle and bars is because that is where your center of mass is. By putting all of your weight near your center of mass, your bike can buck underneath you in response to bumps etc. You’ve probably heard that you should keep your arms loose. Weight on outside pedal, arms loose, and light on the saddle means less of a chance for a bump to upset you and your bike. |
Flaring your knee is a worthless exercise. Weighting the outside pedal will place a little more weight on the front tire, which can't hurt. Learning how to steer properly is the problem for riders with no motorcycle experience or training. Start with the fact that counter steering is required to keep the bike turning and the fact that the bike wants to go in a straight line with no steering input. A bicycle requires so little effort to steer that all sorts of strange ideas exist about steering a bicycle. The most common is that that countersteering only initiates the turn and after that, no additional counter steering is needed. Any motorcycle rider with experience with on winding mountain roads knows better.
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Originally Posted by smashndash
(Post 21360104)
Sorry please explain further. I didn’t mean center of gravity. I just meant the force of gravity.
Also... what do you mean the center of gravity is down the center of the bike? I’m fairly certain that is not true except when you are going in a straight line. |
Originally Posted by Robert A
(Post 21360330)
I mean the force of gravity, too. When you lean right in a turn, the centrifugal force to the left is counteracting the lean. The force is lined up with the tilt of the bike. If it was to the right, you'd fall right over.
but you have piqued my curiosity. I’m going to try descending without flaring my knee and see what happens. Maybe I’ll update. My guess is that, psychologically, it helps me keep track of how hard I’m leaning, regardless of whether I scrape. Motorcyclists do this even when they don’t intend to get anywhere near knee-scraping territory. Some motorcycles can’t. |
I use the knee out to control the amount of lean.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1236062217.png |
Lemond: What is the objective in controlling the amount of lean? To me, it seems you either sit along the centerline of the bike, or you shift your weight to one side. Is there an advantage either way?
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
(Post 21360325)
Flaring your knee is a worthless exercise. Weighting the outside pedal will place a little more weight on the front tire, which can't hurt. Learning how to steer properly is the problem for riders with no motorcycle experience or training. Start with the fact that counter steering is required to keep the bike turning and the fact that the bike wants to go in a straight line with no steering input. A bicycle requires so little effort to steer that all sorts of strange ideas exist about steering a bicycle. The most common is that that countersteering only initiates the turn and after that, no additional counter steering is needed. Any motorcycle rider with experience with on winding mountain roads knows better.
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Counter-steering is where you quickly steer the opposite direction of a turn, going into the turn, in order to lean the bike over.
More lean = more turning action. Too much turning action = CRASH! |
Originally Posted by Lemond1985
(Post 21360350)
More lean = more turning action. Too much turning action = CRASH!
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I once owned a vintage motorcycle with non-folding footpegs. A friend and I used to race each other thru some fairly gnarly windy roads, and I would sometimes need to have the knee out so I could have the cycle more upright and get thru the corner without the footpeg getting too close to hitting the pavement. It's carried over to my bicycle riding. I have slightly dragged a pedal on my road bicycle going around a corner, guess I should have had the pedal upward, but didn't.
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Flaring the knee happens for a number of reasons... The biggest is because people see motorcyclists do it, so they do it on their bike.
The two biggest reasons I do it are to lower the center of gravity when leaned (small reason) and to open up my hips so I can look through the corner better while staying low (main reason).
Originally Posted by Robert A
(Post 21360353)
So will a bike turn quicker if you shift your weight slightly to the outside of the turn?
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This thread is the epitome of "Don't believe everything you read on the internet." Keep the theories coming - this is awesome.
The leader so far: "indicates turn intent" |
Originally Posted by Zaskar
(Post 21360419)
This thread is the epitome of "Don't believe everything you read on the internet." Keep the theories coming - this is awesome.
The leader so far: "indicates turn intent" |
Originally Posted by Robert A
(Post 21360330)
I mean the force of gravity, too. When you lean right in a turn, the centrifugal force to the left is counteracting the lean. The force is lined up with the tilt of the bike. If it was to the right, you'd fall right over.
As to throwing your knee in the direction of a turn, try it at low speed. If I'm turning and need a little more impetus that way, I stick my knee out and it helps get me going into the turn. Maybe it's part mental, maybe it helps get my hips pointed the right way, idk. Try it. |
I do it because I think it looks impressive, especially to an old couple behind you in an RV while I am taming a rocky Mountain pass on my fully-loaded touring bike. They hang back and watch with amazement as I carve up each turn with flared knee, like your proud grandfather carving the turkey at Thanksgiving dinner. Once the rode straightens out, I move over and let them pass. It's not odd for them to applaud or even toss me a garland of roses as they do.
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Originally Posted by Robert A
(Post 21360345)
What is counter steering, and how does adding weight to the outside pedal shift your weight to the front tire?
If the outer pedal is weighted, the weight moves from the saddle, that is further back, to the more forward center of the BB and more weight is on the front wheel. FWIW, I don't bother with it. I've ridden over 7000 miles of winding mountain descents with minimal braking and prefer to concentrate on steering. |
Flair: "a sense of style; dash"
Flare: "a curving outward" |
Originally Posted by woodcraft
(Post 21360599)
Flair: "a sense of style; dash"
Flare: "a curving outward" |
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