New rider braking issues
 

Hey,

I know there is a years old thread about something similar but felt it would be best to start a new one.

I purchased my Catrike 559 about six weeks ago. I have rode a little over 1,000 miles in that time.

I have an issue with as, Catrike, calls them, Panic Braking. Twice now, I have had to stop very quickly as there was something or someone in front of me. Both times the trike has flipped forward and I have ended up face down on the trail with the trike tipped over and or on top of me. The second time, others around and behind me seemed to stop with no issues as I flipped. Never had any issues other than these two stops where it was stop or run into something.

I have not used disc brakes for several previous DF bikes. Should I attribute this to being a new rider?

Before purchasing, I thought about cornering issues and tipping over, but never thought about braking issues like this.

Thanx

I don't know the weight balance of that trike, but the picture of it looks reasonable, i.e. you're not too close to the front axles. In that case, yes, it sounds like inexperience. Practice your braking in a safe place. Stop gently, then progressively harder. You have to learn to control your brakes. This is what I teach when I teach cycling skills. On a regular bike, the risk of tipping over forward is real but small, if you can control yourself. Also, you should have some "spring" in your elbows when you brake hard.

I can't imagine what it would take to actually flip a tadpole trike. Putting the chainring into the pavement in front of you possibly, but flipping? That would take a ridiculous amount of mass shift. Are you trying to stand up at the same time or something?

Sounds like a combination of issues is at work. One, a 559 has a relatively high seat, little recline, and front weight bias. Two, you aren't used to the stopping power of discs. Three you must have some damn grippy tires. Four, if you have to panic stop the battle has already been lost. A superior pilot uses his superior judgement to keep him from needing to use his superior skills. A newbie is not yet a superior pilot.

With my QNT with a laidback hardshell seat, drum brakes, and not so grippy but fast F-lite tires, it's impossible for my rear wheel to become airborne. My front tires skid before that happens, even on steep downhills.

I assume there is no rear braking involved, correct? Cuz aggressive rear braking will crash you quite readily.

Anticipate conditions
 

Panic stops should be few and far between if you anticipate what might happen as you ride. Of my three trikes, only the 2001 Greenspeed GTO with Hope C2 hydraulic disc brakes would ever come close to tipping forward. I lifted the rear wheel on it many a times but soon learned the braking characteristics and modulated my stops, even panic stops. My Catrike 700 has the same brakes as your trike and I haven't ever been able to lift the rear wheel even an inch off the pavement. Of course, it has a lower COG and a laid back seat. The Avid BB7 brakes are OK but no match for a good set of hydraulic disc brakes. How you get them to lock up mystifies me.

Just curious- was that with clipless pedals? Or more to the point, looking at the configuration, I can see if you managed to get sneakers on the ground, you could flip a lot easier than if you stayed clipped in.

Once the chainring/chainring guard hits the ground the trike just falls over. Not trying to stand up. Feet are clipped in.

Pretty sure I am low on the, Pilot, ranking system. :)

The tires are Schwalbe Marathon, Performance Line Raceguard, LiteSkin, tires.

After the bike shop adjusted the brakes for the second time after the second incident. I was able to bring the back tire off the ground in their parking lot, not the to point of tipping, as I was not moving very fast.

There is no rear brake, just the front brakes.

There is no skidding for me. I just go over. Others that were around and behind me during the last incident all seemed to skid to a stop. some went off the trail. They all stopped just as suddenly but they did not have the same result as me. They were pretty much as stunned as I was.

I am clipped in. Shimano SPD clips. The first time both feet remained clipped in this time which was worse, both feet came out of the clips.

An Expedition isn't that high; the seat is below the front axles. The thing is, once the chainring hits the ground, the pivot point is moved forward 2 feet. ALL of your weight is then behind the pivot. If you do that to a trike, then it's a good thing you're not on an upright bike or you'd be doing a Superman dismount. Superman dismounts usually result in broken collarbones.

He has a 559, not an Expedition. The 559 is more upright, and the bottom of the seat is higher. Wheelbase is shorter too.

You just need a bit of practice, both in panic braking and also in anticipating braking situations better. I've lifted the rear wheel on my ICE Sprint a few times and then immediately scold myself for not paying attention. I imagine this will happen again, but not as frequently. One time, I was slower braking on one side than the other and the trike did an immediate 45 degree turn before all wheels were back on the ground. A bit of practice feathering the brakes goes a long way

So I was testing the brakes in my driveway, which has just enough slope to allow rain to run off. I can literally raise the back tire after rolling 6-8 inches. I was doing this to practice braking hard without crashing or not braking as hard when stopping quickly.

One thing I did notice then looking at the brakes and maybe this is normal. The gripping part of each brake is in a different location. On one side it is above the frame and on the other it is below the frame. If that makes sense. As I said this may be normal, but I don't know enough yet to know.

Yes, this is normal for non-mirrored calipers. The orientation is to gain proper cable routing.

559 is the 26" back wheel, the front 406 a 20" (typical tadpole trike layout)


Parts list is showing a Cost conscious Spec of trusty Avid BB7 Cable disc brakes..
1 thing you can do is add; Tektro 107A spring modulators,, 2 for $10.

It's adopting a use of a V brake noodle in the cable run,
that has the housing compressing a spring,
as you pull the cable.. softening the force initially,
applied, when you pull the lever.. *
It's a QBP stocked Item,
if you want your local shop to get them for you, and install them ..

Might need new cables , if they're cut shorter than needed,
or cut the housing to use the same cables.


* I see them on some entry level bikes, included, anticipating needs,
of people who will feel their front V brakes work too aggressively.






....

If the brakes aren't modulating, they may be set up incorrectly - I don't know how they'd be wrong, but incorrect operation should be an issue for the LBS that sold it, not for the poor new owner to figure out. Can the seat recline more? Reclining might move some weight backward and at least minimize the effects.

Not sure what you mean by modulating.

I have the seat back as far as it goes.

I have had it to the shop several times and they have adjusted the brakes and say everything is operating normally. In my mind this is not normal operation.

So these are like anti-lock brakes?

No, not really, anti lock pulses,and releases, so as to stay just short of skidding/lockup..
It's a more complicated sensor feedback scheme to make that work..
in a car you feel it in the brake pedal..

Modulate means to adjust the intensity of something. There is a range of braking rates that are possible, as determined by hand pressure, but some brakes are inherently grabby (i.e. have an off - full on type of tendency, with modulation of the braking force difficult to achieve.). If you are flipping, either your brakes are either exceptionally grabby or your hand is exceptionally grabby. I tend to thing its mostly the latter.

Did I miss it or did you not tell us what brand / model of brakes you have on your trike?

OEM brakes on Catrikes are Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes. I set up my own Catrike 700 when I got it in 2013 and the brakes are adequate to stop the trike as needed. They will skid on the pavement if grabbed tightly but will not lift the rear wheel. Perhaps it is the tires. I use Tioga BMX front tires on the trike and they do not grab the road so much that it would not skid.

Huh. That supports my grabby hand theory.

I currently have two bents with BB7s and they don't seem particularly grabby to me. The Avid Juicys I once had on a Logo Trike were a little more grabby, but I still found them capable of decent modulation. That Logo was pretty upright too. Of the tadpoles I've owned, it was the most capable of a "stoppie" (aka endo), but I never did experience that (thank goodness).

Coincidental timing of this thread, only a week after a similar one posted to BROL in which the OP there had an epiphany that the rear wheel could lift in hard braking.

Just because you can't tip over at a stop doesn't mean trikes are completely stable in all situations. It sure sounds like you just need to learn how to modulate your braking - those things aren't just on/off, they're also a zillion increments in between. Also remember that you only have brakes on the front of a tadpole. In low-traction situations, braking hard can also cause the trike to go end-for-end, which is also a good way to lose some skin.

I was going to join that page but for some reason it has issues with my IP address.

There are characteristic advantages of different braking technologies but all should be adequate for the needs of a non-competitive rider. I doubt that a hydraulic caliper can stop a trike any faster than Avid BB7's if the tires on the trike are Kenda Kwests. That said, two riders, one with a fear threshold much higher than the other will have different outcomes in a panic stop situation. Frightened 90lb. drivers have crushed brake pedals in accident situations as they generate immense pressures on the metal pedal Forces that far bigger and stronger drivers never achieve. Ever. It is my conjecture that the completely unfamiliar layout and handling of the o.p.'s trike is front loading all their rides with an unhealthy amount of fear that is just waiting for an outlet. There are enough of those moments on nearly every ride of any length. I do not think that new riders spend enough parking lot time learning the basics of the handling of their crafts before heading out among the heathen. I read on this and other threads all the time of new riders involved in accidents in group ride situations and I'm like. Huh? Why is someone with less than (varies, but usually more than 20 miles, lots more) miles of experience out on a group ride! When me and mine went to try out a new Trek T900 tandem, the brakes went right down to the bars on the first stop. I took it back to the shop and said the brakes .... wtf. They said they set them up like that so people won't endo over the bars. I say, "tandems can't endo, can you fix this please". So they took out the widget fietsbob mentioned but they still left a TON of slack in the brake action that I had to take out when I got the bike home. I can't tell people how not to be afraid and grab huge fistfuls of brake lever when bad stuff happens suddenly, but I do think if people take it slow when around new bikes. Very slow. It will be of benefit.