Removing Regina two-prong freewheel from Phil Wood hub?
 

I'm sure once up a time I saw reference to a no-longer-produced Phil Wood tool for removing Regina freewheels (two-prong, not splined) from Phil Wood hubs. Does someone have a reference? My Google searching has so far not yielded any useful hits.

https://www.bike24.com/p2276318.html

Is this the right tool?

Check with some local shops. If you’re not reusing the FW it might be worth a few bucks to just have someone else kick it loose

Skip,
That tool is a specialty tool. It has two prongs and a ring around them to keep the lips of the freewheel from deforming during removal. And likely made of unobtainium, check with your local co-op or LBS. It is worth the price to have the right tool to remove this freewheel without destroying it. I don't have one and don't know of a source for one of them. Perhaps Park tools has one, but don't try the Suntour tool it will tear the freewheel tabs apart. HTH, MH

Based on what you said about the retaining ring I did a bit more looking around on this forum and found this thread: https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...l-remover.html

And it sounds like you can use the Dura ace freewheel removal tool or the Bicycle Research CT-1, both of which are (surprisingly) available on ebay. But they're not cheap.

Dura ace tool

Bicycle Research Tool

Skip,
Contact Crandress the Crap Master I think he has one and he may lend it to ya. Smiles, MH

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Dura-Ac...kAAOSw0NRbw3s3

gallery
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/52kAA...3s3/s-l400.jpg

Thanks for the suggestions. I have an Eldi tool, which works great on more typical hubs, though you have to remove the axle (small opening). My worry about any tool is that it might not clear the end cap (0.75-inch diameter), though the Shimano tool looks like it ought to work.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c755521a4e.jpg

Skip,
If you remove the axle you are more likely to get some better purchase on the free wheel body. HTH, MH

Seems unlikely that removing the end cap will be easy, especially with the hub laced up into a wheel. From this VSalon post I quote:

Needless to say, I do not have said bearing press. I'm not sure what it looks like, but I wouldn't be surprised if it required the hub to be unlaced from the rim and for the freewheel to be removed first. I'd then be in a chicken-and-egg situation. I suspect the correct solution will be to find a suitable freewheel remover, such as the Dura-Ace or Bicycle Research tools mentioned in earlier posts.

Are we saying there is some Regina tool that won't work with a Phil hub? Can someone give an example? Seems to me, any Regina 2-prong remover will work as well on a Phil hub as on any other hub.

Now, with the splined bodies, that's not true, you need the Phil remover for that. But with the 2-prong, they all work equally well with Phil hubs as with Campy, Normandy or what-have-you. You absolutely do not have to remove any end-cap.

If there are any counter-examples, please provide a photo showing why it wouldn't work.

Mark B

Tl-fw10
 

3 years ago I learned of this remover from this site. Just walked in to our biggest bike store in Dallas area (Richardson bike mart) and asked Jack the old time mechanic if he had a TL-FW10 remover. He said just a minute. Came back 5 minutes later with it in a box. He was so surprised I knew what to ask for he charged me the old sticker price that was on it. All of 8 bucks or so. We both had a good laugh.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...cda311822.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1ed2dfa8f.jpeg

I still say your best bet is to find an old shop with with some old guy sporting a grey ponytail and Grateful Dead tshirt that starting his career with the Wright Bros. You need to get this in the hands of an experienced mechanic not the parts replacers we have today.

Another way may be to simply drill out a larger home in a tool that fits the notches.

I can't take a photo right this minute (as the rest of the household is sleeping above my shop), but my Eldi remover is one such tool. Here's an image from another source. My Eldi tool matches the lower right-hand tool. In the context of the current discussion, I suspect their decision to beef up the tangs the way they did seems odd, but I rather suspect they were only thinking about traditional cup-and-cone hubs, not "exotic" stuff like Phil and other hubs where one of the goals was to beef up the rear axle strength.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c164d53cba.jpg

Thanks. Am on the lookout for one now. Nice to have positive confirmation that it will fit. Also, JohnDThompson commented on this Velobase entry about a decade ago (!) that it also fits Regina freewheels.

I am guessing the OP's issue with it not fitting has to do with the axle being slightly too long or too large in diameter for the tool to properly engage the FW notches. I'd run into this sometimes on wheels respaced from 6 to 7 speed or even a pair of my own wheels that went from 7 to 8 speed. If you're careful you can get just enough drie side axle that the prongs don't engage well.

Some two-prong tools, e.g. the VAR-188, may not clear the Phil locknuts and require removing the axle in order to seat the tool. This makes it difficult to e.g. use the quick release to secure the tool in place.

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/var-188.jpg



Some two-prong tools like the Shimano TL-FW10 and the Bicycle Research CT-1 have a stabilizing ring that helps prevent damage to the delicate remover slots on the freewheel body. This make them the preferred tools for dealing with these freewheels.

You could use an 1/4" threaded rod to hold the tool from slipping - but I always wondered why they used those tiny shallow notches in the first place.

Huh, that's lame. My Var 186 Regina remover fits over a Phil axle, just tried it. I also have the Campy "i" tool (just the letter i) Regina remover that comes with the fully Campy toolkit from the '70s, and it fits over the Phil axle too.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e2143eb8cd.jpg

But the one I actually use is my Dura-Ace, with the reinforcing ring as John mentioned, it's the best of the three.

Since all three of my Regina removers fit over Phil hub axles, I was unaware that there were other, dumber designs out there. Who would put up with removing the hub axle to take a freewheel off? With your ball bearings falling on the floor and all that? I mean even if you don't have a Phil, which is a whole 'nother can o' worms, even more of a pain to get the axle out and then mount it and the bearings back in the shell. Oh yeah, later Phil hubs had a "field serviceable axle" but all my Phil hubs are the older kind, where removing and re-installing the axle is one step short of impossible for most people.

I see the Dura-Ace remover is available here (ebay) for $37.50 shipped. Definitely worth it to anyone who wants to work on a bike with Regina two-prong freewheel. Of course that sidesteps the question of why would you want to use that freewheel! That same freewheel was made with the Atom-style splined remover, and that's less likely to self-destruct while removing. But you might just like your two-prong -- I won't judge, I use a lot of dumb old bike parts just because they're old and I like 'em for some idiosyncratic reason. I have a bike in the stand right now with a two-prong Regina. Anyway, at the very least, you need to take it off one time even if only to to replace it.

Beware, the splined remover style of Regina only works with a Phil hub if you get the remover made by Phil Wood. Or maybe I shouldn't say that categorically -- maybe someone else made them too? But a regular Atom-style remover like the Var will not fit, you need a super thinwall remover, such as the one Phil used to sell. Ah, I see Park makes an Atom/Regina remover, but one reviewer (John M. Schubert) on Amazon said it does not fit over Phil or Campy. Not thinwall enough. Can anyone confirm? (I wonder if that's the John Schubert who used to be an editor at Bicycling magazine? If so, he's very smart and knowledgeable.) Yeah I know I'm going off topic, OP was asking about 2-prong, not spline.

I've had my Phil thinwall splined remover since the '70s and it hasn't broken yet, so it's a great tool if you can find one. Pretty much all 2-prong removers have to be thought of as expendable, in my experience. I've even broken 4-prong removers like Suntour Winner and Cyclo-Pans. Very upsetting to break a practically unobtainable Cyclo-Pans remover from the '70s. Big fan of the splined remover style, if and only if you can find a Phil remover. This guy on Flickr had one for sale a few months ago, might be worth asking him if it's still for sale. $20 seems like a bargain.

Mark B in Seattle

'cuz that's all that was available at the time? At least that's what I recall. It was a few years ago and my memory ain't what it used to be. I don't have a ton of freewheels and more and more those I do have are seven-speed. Still, I'm stubborn and don't cold set my frames. I'd like to swap out the Regina for a SunTour Alpha (narrow six-speed) with a bit more generous big cog.

The VAR-186 apparently has somewhat wider bore than the VAR-188.


Although if you have one of those new-fangled 13 tooth sprockets installed, you need to use the 704/1 "reducer insert" to reach the slots on the freewheel body. And then you lose the benefit of the stabilizer ring built into the 704 handle.

You could, of course, remove the smallest sprocket or two to use the 704 tool without the reducer insert, but that's a lot of bother.

To be fair, on non-Phil hubs, you only needed to remove the locknut and spacer to seat the tool, so you didn't actually need remove the whole axle assembly.

Yes, the Zeus freewheel tool also fits over the locknuts. IIRC, the Zeus tool was the inspiration for Phil's tool.

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/zeus-fw-tool.jpg

Yes, the FR-4. I don't have one here to test, alas.

Mine held up fine until I loaned it out and it came back mangled. I was not pleased. Fortunately, I have others that work.

N.B. even with the splined body, I feel Regina's overly complex sprocket fitting (multiple diameter and fitting patterns), and the body being design for a four-sprocket freewheel, with additional sprockets cobbled on to the outer sprockets rather than directly on the body, made them less than desirable in my view.

John correctly points out the Campy i tool has the stabilizer ring. I said the Dura Ace remover was the best, so I was not being fair to the Campy, which honestly is probably just as good, it's just not the one I reach for. I think maybe I grab the DA tool because it would be so much cheaper to replace if I screwed it up -- the Campy is kind of "precious".

Yeah but that doesn't work on Campy hubs, or some others, where the wrench flats to remove the nut are inaccessible to the wrench until after you take the freewheel off.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...eb575edef4.jpg

Cool, good to know. I'd love to have one of those Zeus tools even though I have a Phil, just because I'm a "collector" (hoarder) and they're cool!

Mark B

I can confirm that the Park remover does not fit over campy locknuts. They have to be taken off to use the tool. Kind of a pain, but they work and they won't shear off like a Phil.

I had a Phil splined remover, but it somehow got lost in a move a few years back. They do get destroyed from time to time. I've killed one or two in my day. This was using them every day in a shop though, for home use probably fine.

WRT the OP, I'm certain I've removed many many Regina freewheels from Phil hubs, and I am also certain I never had to remove the axle. I don't remember which tool was used. Probably whatever one out of the bin fit best, most likely a VAR.

I assume you know not to try this without a QR clamping the tool on, but I'll repeat it just in case. Never remove a freewheel from a hub without the tool firmly clamped to the freewheel with a QR.

But, warning #2 , be super careful removing any freewheel from a Phil hub, because the QR skewer holding the remover on will extract the axle (with bearings) from the hub shell! Helpful if that's what you wanted to do, but super annoying when you did not want the axle/bearings subassembly dragged right out of the shell, or even just shifted over by a couple mm (partial extraction).

Phil hubs BITD came with an extra little tool, just a steel cup, intended to be put over the left side of the hub before the QR skewer went through the cup, hub and remover tool. This cup prevented the QR from moving the axle in the hub shell. Many mechanics threw this steel cup away, so there's a shortage of them now. But you don't really need one, if you're careful.

Salamandrine and other experienced mechanics know this, so I'm just posting this warning for the less-experienced or amateur mechanics: As soon as the freewheel starts to budge at all, you have to loosen the skewer. You don't have to remove it completely, just loosen it a little to give the freewheel some slack, room to thread off a little more. Once the freewheel is unthreading easily, and the remover tool no longer needs the QR holding it, only then should you remove the QR completely.

Splined removers don't need a QR holding them in, in my opinion. They have so much engagement that they are not likely to slip, if you're paying attention. Just one more reason I prefer the splined remover type.

Mark B

Thanks, yes, I've made the two most common mistakes before — trying to remove a prong-type freewheel without qr, trying to use a Regina two-prong freewheel with a SunTour freewheel tool. The second mistake was expensive, as I had to take the wheel to a shop and pay to get the freewheel (destructively) removed, not having a second chain whip at that time.

Thanks for the tip. I have a couple wheelsets with Phil hubs, but this is my first experience removing a freewheel from one of them. That's an advantage of living in Flatlandia. Almost any freewheel is "good enough." Grab something with the proper width from the drawer, slap it on, and go ride. :)