Tire mounting conundrum
 

I was given an older Vitus road bike. The wheels are in good shape, and have Ambrosio rims on the wheels. The tires that were on it are Continental Super Sport 700x23 C (pic of label attached). They're worn out and I need to replace them. I have now tried three different brands of (new) 700x23 C (23-622) tires, one of them a newer version of the Continental Super Sport, and none of them will go on. Like it's not even close. I.e. I can even get the first bead on...let alone the second bead, and/or with a tube in it. I don't even think I could force them on if I wanted to. I can get the old tires on and off...but none of the new ones. It's not like I don't know how to change bike tires. I have six bike and have been doing all my own work on them for decades. What gives?

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d5f107ecb5.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3c9d410f10.jpg

Dan

These rims, like some, have little depth at the interior's center, where the spoke nipple access holes are. The tire's bead can't fit closer to the wheel center then where it will be when mounted. So no extra "slack" can be gathered up by having the tire bead at this center location, making the tire bead really hard to slide over the rim's edge.

Easier to mount rims have a depressed center portion allowing the tire's bead to fit deeper and thus gather up some slack. Some tires will fit somewhat looser and might be easier to mount on these rims. Andy

I will ditto Andy's comments- it was never easy to mount tires on rims from that era. New tires are also less flexible which makes installing them tougher.

One variable that you can change: cloth rims strips like Velox are thick and can make mounting tight tires nearly impossible. Thinner nylon rim strips like these from Ritchey:
https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...9&category=140
can make installing a tight tire much easier.

+1 on the tape issue, sometimes thinner tape can help. I usually opt for 2 wraps of tubeless tape, Scotch 8898, other packing tape, etc. Something less than 5 mil. Or maybe a strong 6-7mil tape with only one layer

Modern tires I think are designed differently because we have recessed rims now. Back then they didn't. Try this:

Set tires in the sun to warm up. Stretch the tires by pulling with your feet and hands. Rotate tire and go all the way round a few times. Warm the tires up again in the sun. Immediately try to mount them using a toe strap or two to hold the bead in position on the rim and work the bead on with both hands Challenge tires are hard to get on also the first time but the toe strap method works like a champ..

Are you positive they aren't 27" rims versus 700c?

Well, if they are 27" rim then the old tire is mislabeled. That pic above is the old 700c tire still mounted on the rim.

The one problem I have with using some 'trick' to get the tire on is that I'd be screwed if/when I have a flat mid-ride on the road somewhere.

I concur about the lower portion in the center of the rim. In fact...when I Googled for some tips about getting hard to mount tires on...the videos all brought that up. But still...have they changed the size of 700c tires? The old Continential is a 700c, goes on and off easily, but I can't get a brand new Continentialof the same size on.

As I said...all the tires I've tried to get on are 23mm. Would a wider tire...25mm be easier to mount?

I'm going to try the sun warming suggestion

Dan

Put wheel in the freezer?
Some combos are the devil himself, but this is a good review of where he comes from.
Worst part is some dude with a vid doing some other combo bare handed and staring at you like you must be some kind of idiot.
Is there a wheel data base of Circ's for comparison?, I can measure circumference by rolling the wheel on the floor,
which is all I am capable of by the time I need to get it to check.
Or even the ISO specs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5775
is also a good quick review of what may affect the fit.
I have some combinations I will cut off If I they ever get a flat,
since they won't let me ride with my hatchet
anymore

I have some old bikes with that type of tire, set them in the sun and applied some dish soap to the rim to slip them on easier. Just a thought.

Yeah, going to try this. But...in a case like this...how difficult is it to get the tire OFF once you do get it on? I'm thinking of the difficulties of have to fix a flat mid-ride.

Dan

I sort of resolved this. I tried warming the tire, stretching them, soapy water,...there is no way the new tires were going on those rims. Which BTW I forgot to mention are folding tires...as were all the other tires I tried to mount on those wheels but would not go on. The old tires that were on the wheels were wire beads. So, I decided to see if the new tires would go onto the wheels of any of my other bikes. They did. Not really easily, but I got them on. And, I took the tires from that bike, with wire beads, and put them on the old wheels from the Vitus I was given. So I guess the problem was a combination of older wheels, new tires, and perhaps some disparity between foldable tires and wire bead tires. None of them went on as easily as I'd like them to. And I have a feeling that when the day comes that I have to repair a flat mid-ride that I'm going to be cussing myself because the tire will be so hard to get off/on.

Dan

I would at least try to mount a 27” tire just to see. Panaracer makes some nice ones in various widths for reasonable prices. If you go to some bike shops or co ops they may have an old one you could try fitting. Not being able to fix a flat out on the road would certainly make riding the bike a problem.

+2 on trying the thin tape, I believe it may free up just enough slack for the bead to drop down into the rim bed 180 degrees opposite of where you are calmly finessing that tight bead up, and over the rim sidewall.

I would also also ask if you are changing tires barehanded and what brand of tire levers are you using and in what combinations?

I have found that snug fitting leater leather gardening gloves allow me to work with my 3 flat Schalbe tire levers to prevent blistering of my thumbs and give increased leverage to roll a tight bead that last little bit. I think you may also have better luck with 25mm width tires. You may have to try a few different brands/price points until you identify the easy to mount ones that you seek. Technique with tire irons matters too. You can get a super tight bead ready for the final roll by spacing 2 tire levers about 5” apart, levering them part way until you can slip the third tire lever in the middle of the other two then very gingerly (like a person with 3 hands, haha) pop that bead over the last section of hidden rim sidewall. Thicker tire levers like standard Park Tools or Pedro’s don’t work as well here, they are too thick.

I know soapy water is the standard, but I find adding some antifreeze to the soapy water really keeps it slippery and the mix won't dry too quickly.

Works great on my motorcycle tires!

Long ago in my shop days I put a 27" tire on a 700C rim. It blew off the rim seconds after being inflated. My ears were ringing for the rest of the day.

One of my bikes had those same rims with Vittoria 23 wire bead tires. They were a bit hard to install, but not really a problem.

I have some Ambrosio rims like that - same brand and model. They've always been nearly impossible to get tires off and on. Doesn't matter what brand tire. I use folding tires, not wire bead, and preferably tires that have already been mounted - they're a little more flexible. Then I have to use my Kool Stop Tire Bead Jack, start fighting with it, and keep fighting until I win. I've looked online - those rims are apparently known for being tight - I've seen them called "the rims from h***."

+1 Kool stop tire jack

https://blueskycycling.com/products/...yABEgLF8fD_BwE

seems to work fine, and the thin tape. You don't want to go nuts with the thing but they do help.

Clearly we are not talking about normal 700c wheels. I have several 700c rims and mounting or changing tires isn't a problem. I would never suggest mounting the wrong size tire on a wheel and take off on a ride. Under normal circumstances what you describe would be the outcome. Clearly there is something wrong when you can't get a tire on a wheel, I just think if you try a 27" tire and THE BEAD SEATS CORRECTLY you may have found the problem. Hence the part about finding an old tire "just to try" . I just wouldn't ride a bike that would leave me stranded if I got a flat. What you did was mount a 27" tire on a known 700c rim which was a bad choice.

I had that happen one very hot and humid day. I flatted and had a deuce of a time getting the 19mm folding tire off the rim. I broke one of my VAR tire levers trying. I eventually got one side of the tire off but I forget how. I do not I was cooked by the time I did and that I had to take a rest under some trees that I eventually came to. Now if a tire I try to mount on any wheel is hard to mount I forgo using that tire/wheel combination. With a hard to mount/dismount tire, Old Mr. Murphy will strike at the least opportune time.It's also likely to be the one time when you can't call for a ride or the person you call can't come and get you.

Cheers

Try Vittoria tires. Much easier to mount. (And consider - you might get a flat with that tire you never want to deal with again. Second Miele Man's Murphy warning.)

Switch to two wraps of 1 mil Kapton tape, 5/8" (16mm) wide for classic narrow rims. At 0.005" total two wraps are half the thickness of "thin" tapes or two wraps of filament tape, and a quarter of most tapes like Velox. It's lightest, patchable if you replace a spoke, and least expensive. The adhesive is weak so it peels right off if you want to remove it for some reason.

Start the second bead 180 degrees opposite from the valve stem and finish at it so you have even more slack.

When you have the tire most of the way on, go back 180 degrees from the valve stem, pull the second bead into the depression at the center of the rim, and milk the slack around until you can flip the last bit of tire over with your thumbs or the heel of your palm.

waddya going to if you flat and are not near a freezer?

I'm going to get a roll of that 5/8 Kapton tape and give that a try. But, I'm not really optimistic about it giving me enough room to get thos tires on...but I'll try it. I read up on a few other discussion forums, and the specs of the tape. Seems like a good alternative to traditional rim tape. A question for those here who've used it...is one layer strong enough? And, althought it'd be time consuming, I was wondering about cutting a seperate piece for each hole instead of just wrapping it completely around the rim.

One other thought that I have about tire mount issues like this...I'm wondering if re-tensioning the wheel would help. I.e....if I equally tensioned each spoke just a bit more...a quarter of a turn for example...and of course trued the wheel...would that work? Do the physics involved make the circumference smaller?

Dan

Go for 2 layers. The pressure in the tube will push the tape in the rim spoke holes, stretching and eventually breaking the tape into the hole. This leads to a "blow-in" where the tube pops into the resulting hole. (Had it happen. It's not fixable while on the road.) For the same reason you want to use a complete loop around the rim.

I've done this for an extremely tight tire combination: a 17" Moulton tire on a narrow Sun M13 rim. It was impossible to mount the tire with Velox rim tape in place. Thin tape made it possible if not easy.

I had a few cases recently where folding tires wouldn't fit right on older rims, one was a set of Mavic rims with new folding bead tires, I believe they were continental branded as well. I did manage to get the tire on the rim but was not able to get the bead to pop up in place even after 20+ tries and a ton of pressure. I gave up and went with different tires.
I find the opposite with some tire/rim combos too. I had a few 26" tires that wouldn't stay on the rim no matter what I tried, but swapping to a different tire or different brand solved the issue. I've even had two identical tires from different orders or batches fit differently. Its gotten to the point where I'm actually surprised when a tire fits like it should these days.