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-   -   The Water Cooler, Scuttlebutt, Chit Chat Thread (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=1105191)

TMonk 06-12-17 10:59 PM

I like how safe track is relative to crit racing. I can see myself getting much more involved than I am now in a few years. I still need to sign up for an xc race around here at some point.

Really I wish there was a cx scene in San Diego. I think I'd like it and be good at too; I've always been pretty nimble and generally athletic. BB and wrestling in HS.

tetonrider 06-12-17 11:02 PM


Originally Posted by mattm (Post 19649640)
Re: the decline of bike racing - instead of postulating, guessing, estimating, why don't we ask people that have quit the sport?

In some cases they are long gone from the scene, so it's hard/impossible to even ask them; but there are plenty people here in the 33 (+ lurkers) that could surely chime in on why they quit the sport.

I bet what you'll find is that it's not just one thing - danger, money, travel, difficulty, etc - it's a mix of all of them. Trying to solve the problem by tackling only one of those things is a bad idea, I think.

Just by coincidence, in the past 3 days I've spoken with 4 people that either quit the sport or are contemplating it (1 quit riding and racing, and the other who quit still rides but is thinking of giving that up).

They were fairly high-level in the sport, meaning each had shown serious commitment: One was a Cat 1 and old guy national champ, another a pro (paid) rider, the third a Cat 1 who gets invited to race P/1 stuff on composite teams, and the fourth is a run-of-the-mill Cat 2.

The primary reason they cited for quitting (or thinking about it) was safety.

The national champ guy won lots of races and, ironically, was the only one never injured; he's just known too many people who wound up in the hospital to think it is worth it. The situation with Chad really hit home with 2 of them. The last one was nearly killed by a car while training, and on Friday his father's friend was hit and killed on a route my friend used to use for training.

How many of us have broken a bone while participating in our sport? Hit by a car? Know someone hit by a car? Know someone killed while out *training*?

The reality is that we generally practice on open roads -- with an infrastructure that favors 2-ton objects over our safety. I'd think for a loooong time before encouraging my kid to take up the sport (racing on the road), and I wouldn't coach a junior (sending them out on the road for long periods of time when they may not fully understand the risk is not something I'd do--it's different with older racers). That's kind of a problem.

I'm still a rider and a racer, but I understand where these folks are coming from. there aren't that many self-powered hobbies where one might die during competition -- or even just practicing for it. It's a sobering thought.

Happened to come across this moments before reading this thread:

  1. Most people who run a club think they are experts with nothing to learn.
  2. Most people who race bikes think they invented cycling.
  3. Most club members are wholly unaware of educational opportunities, because typically THERE ARE NONE.
  4. Most cyclists would rather ride badly and get hurt than devote several Saturdays a year to improving or, dog forbid, teaching others.
  5. 99.99999% of all non-cycling family members have no idea, none at all, how dangerous riding a bike can be if you do it wrong.
  6. Safety has no place in any racing club Iíve ever belonged to except, if youíre incredibly lucky, as an add-on to kit design, race reimbursement, board squabbles, fights over sponsorship, training, and Strava competitions. Usually itís completely non-existent.
  7. Most clubs refuse to pay money for professional instruction. But they will pay for parties!
  8. Most racers think race survival skills = road safety skills.
  9. Most new cyclists ape the attitudes of the more experienced ignoramuses.
  10. Thereís never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over Ö in the hospital.


aaronmcd 06-12-17 11:28 PM


Originally Posted by Heathpack (Post 19649443)
And this is the issue 1000%. A great many people in bike racing feel this way. Reach a hand out to someone outside your peer group to help him/her find success the sport? F that, if it means I ever have to compromise in what I'm doing for my self. I'm gonna race my bike.

This attitude is completely utterly foreign to me. You have something you love to do? You achieve some kind of success doing it? If that kind of good fortune strikes, it's almost an obligation IMO to share it and to cultivate the thing you love.

Making bike racing work for more types of people would make the sport more robust. I roll my eyes every time someone here pontificates as to why the other guy isn't racing crits or road races. Delusional, the idea that it's all about the need for participation trophies or that women just aren't competitive.

Whatever.

No you got that wrong. I dont think its my mission in life cuz my mission in life isn't about bikes period. I love racing. But its not the end all be all in life. Making new racers isn't my mission in life cuz there is whole crapload to life. Freedom to live as one wants is the main thing I hope to see in peoples lives. Be it bike racing or choosing their own out of the box lifestyle. Bike racing is just competition and fun. A lot of fun. I've even suggested the early bird crits to the main cycling group in SF and I've suggested racing to several ppl I've met. But ya know what? My peer group doesn't race or ride bikes as you suggested. That's just me. For fun. Feeling like something isnt my mission in life to make new bike racers isn't bad. But I can still comment on how I best think that would happen. And its community, suggestion, motivation. Not clinics.

Racer ex, credentials and crash counters don't necessarily make one an expert in another topic. You got me on the crash counter - cuz I crashed in my second crit, reinforcing your point that newbs should be more prepared. Doesn't make it the right thing to do to create mandatory barriers tho. That's a difference between saying it would be nice if people did X, and forcing people to do X to participate in an already fringe sport. If you count that crash, my crash:race ratio is worse than yours. But after that race, my crash to race ratio is better. Means nothing to the argument.

carpediemracing 06-13-17 05:25 AM


Originally Posted by PepeM (Post 19649428)
I agree. How many threads do we get of someone asking if he/she is ready to try racing? A clinic would make you ready. I reckon more people would give it a go if some help getting started was available.

+1

I think that people that have an interest in racing would really benefit from learning some stuff about racing before they race. This is why I started doing clinics toward the end of the Bethel Spring Series (required to do the clinic which took place before the Cat 5 race), because I wanted a way to get new riders educated (as much as was possible with a short clinic) before they raced. At the very least it would make them more comfortable with the course, the riders around them, and the idea of going and racing their bike. It was interesting to see who stopped racing and who didn't. The earnest students really wanted to be good bike racers. One used some of my tips to stay upright and reminded me every time I saw him.

This doesn't apply to those that aren't necessarily interested in racing. For example I love karting. I wouldn't try and convince everyone I know to go karting, but if there's someone that's interested in it but very frustrated with their lack of results, I'll help them. That's exactly what I did a couple Tuesdays ago. Instead of going and racing bikes, I went karting with 4 people, 2 of which were newer to karting than me. They are probably better car drivers than me but in karts they floundered. I gave them some major tips, based on the fact that karts are not like cars (solid rear axle, no suspension) as well as kart characteristics (there are some hot karts out there and some not-so-hot karts). They immediately dropped their lap times, experimented with technique when in a slow kart, and both qualified for pro-karts. I'm pretty sure one of them will be better than me in the pro-karts, based on the lap times he was putting down in a regular one.

carpediemracing 06-13-17 05:33 AM

I'm also at a crossroads myself. I like to race. I no longer train outside, for a variety of reasons, but safety is now the primary one. I can control, at some level, risk in a race. I can't control risk on the road, therefore I made a choice to avoid riding outside. I do it to get used to the bike again because, frankly, my bike handling is off by quite a bit when I first get on the bike (no videos of me warming up with my front tire between a derailleur cable housing and spokes for example). I've ridden maybe 7 times outside? I raced 5 times, got viciously shelled 3 times.

So I like racing, I don't like training outside. I don't do skills drills. I think the most important thing a young rider can do is to learn skills drills, especially front wheel touching/bumping. They stay with you forever. The last time I did significant bike skills drills was in 1989, so 28 years ago. The last time I did tumbling exercises was 1983 (sprint and jump over 6-8 classmates with just their heads bowed over, and land/roll on a thin mat)? And those skills have stayed with me as well, as evidenced by my tuck and roll in 2009 where I saw pavement in front of me but hit the back of my helmet, not my face.

carpediemracing 06-13-17 05:40 AM

Finally, "helping others".

I think some volunteering is good. In the old days clubs had to hold races and a club would require its members to work their own race. The penalty for not holding a race was the club couldn't renew its membership or wear its jersey.

However many riders are not good teachers. They may not convey enthusiasm well. Etc. You don't want those people to be your ambassadors.

Simply being an earnest bike racing citizen is great. I saw many riders come and do my races loyally and consistently. Certain ones would never, and I mean never, help out. But they were always there, always racing, and happy to be there. Other ones would try and help out, volunteer or whatever. Again, very consistent, very loyal. Sure, the volunteer ones helped a bit more, but without literally 80 or 90 riders that would show up every year to the Series (and pre-register for the whole Series) it would have been hard to just get started holding the Series.

So just being a consistent, earnest, and good natured bike racer is, for me, a great thing.

rubiksoval 06-13-17 05:46 AM


Originally Posted by carpediemracing (Post 19649940)
I think the most important thing a young rider can do is to learn skills drills, especially front wheel touching/bumping. They stay with you forever.

A couple of months after I started riding at 17 I joined the local club and before the first race of the year the leader took me out into a soccer field and we did that for 30 minutes or so. I fell over a few times, and I fell over later that day on the road after touching a rear wheel, but I can't recall ever falling over just by hitting another wheel after that. And I've since always felt really comfortable bumping bars and shoulders and all.

I agree. It stays with you. That was super beneficial.

revchuck 06-13-17 06:26 AM

I wish I had had that opportunity. The first time I touched wheels was in a race. Chuckie fall down, go boom. :( That was my first broken clavicle.

topflightpro 06-13-17 06:47 AM

The track I've been racing at requires new riders to get certified. It makes sense to me.

I've found that road cycling, by and large, does not create a very friendly environment for bringing in new riders and racers. I'm sure everyone on this forum has gone out of their way to help another, but for the most part, I've found a lot of egos in this sport. It doesn't offer support and turns off new riders.

I've also noticed that the most vocal and critical racers tend to be cat 4s - can't say I'm not guilty of espousing "expert" advice. If you're a 5 and get mixed in with those 4s, that does not create a good or encouraging environment. I could pull at least one specific example of this on the forum, but I'd prefer not to call anyone out right now.

Also, putting on races is hard. Really hard. It's a lot of work, and very few racers have ever promoted or volunteered at an event. It's a thankless job. And it's expensive. Psimet posted a list of costs from his recent race and how he ONLY lost $1,500 this time. Races are going away because for many promoters, it's not worth the time and effort, especially when racers complain about a $40 entry fee.

Injuries and crashes are still another issue. I've been hit by a car. I was fortunate that the car was rolling through a stop sign when it hit me, so it was low speed, and I was not injured - but I did need a new frame and rear wheel. I've also crashed out of races - three that I can recall. The last happened last year at Masters Nationals, which left me with a separated shoulder. I didn't go back to Masters Nats this year, even though it was still in driving distance. And I saw a guy crash himself out on the track on Saturday - he broke his collarbone. My father is a golfer. He has some shoulder issues that limit him to playing just twice a week, but that is more of an old age issue than a sport issue. I think his biggest concern is losing a golf ball.

Lastly, life often gets in the way. We've discussed in the past how difficult it is to stay in race shape. It requires near daily commitment for most people. Jobs, families... can limit that. I know among my teammates, several have stopped racing and reduced riding simply because they had kids, which took more of their time.

So, I don't see it as one issue, but many. Yeah, other hobbies are doing well. Scuba diving seems to have good numbers. But I'd bet that most scuba divers aren't training every day or spending most weekends at races. They may go take a vacation one or two times a year.

revchuck 06-13-17 06:57 AM


The track I've been racing at requires new riders to get certified. It makes sense to me.
I'm equidistant from two velodromes - Baton Rouge and Houston. I've been thinking about trying track, just to do it. Houston offers "Track 101" clinics, Baton Rouge doesn't. It makes the choice easy.

PepeM 06-13-17 07:10 AM


Originally Posted by revchuck (Post 19650018)
I wish I had had that opportunity. The first time I touched wheels was in a race. Chuckie fall down, go boom. :( That was my first broken clavicle.

Me too. I've never done bump drills or touching wheels drills or anything of the sorts. I seriously doubt anyone here ever does that. Maybe some of the junior teams. I bet I would be a better racer if I was confident doing that kind of stuff. As is now, I just keep my distance.

The velodrome here also requires a certification clining before you can race. I don't think it is very long or formal (haven't been there yet.) Just someone walking you through the process of racing on the track. I am glad they offer that. When I finally decide to show up I rather do that than jump right in into the action, what with me having never ridden a fixed gear bike and not being all that great at looking behind while holding my line.

I haven't been racing for that long, but I can't say that I am super hooked. The main issue for me is the lack of events, road races in particular. I don't really enjoy criteriums all that much. Also, traveling for hours to race forty minutes is always a tough sell. If I could at least get a couple of hours of riding on interesting terrain, that is far more appealing. But I know that road races are really hard and expensive to organize, and then very few people show up. That's what I like about collegiate, there is (almost) always a road race. But that lasts like two months.

Grumpy McTrumpy 06-13-17 07:14 AM

I don't subscribe to the theory that safety is the biggest issue driving people out of the sport. Of course, that is not intended to devalue those stories and opinions presented here which point in the direction of rider safety being the primary issue.

What I have noted is that, even though the "traditional" form of bike racing has declined (and declined in a huge way in my area), there is still a lot of interest in aerobic fitness competition. It may take the form of gravel grinders, or hill climbs, or gran fondos, triathlon, running events, cross, or stuff I don't even know about.

Perhaps people aren't "quitting" but transferring.

I feel that a pattern is emerging. The traditional sport takes no prisoners. You either make the cut or you get dropped, and even if you do make the cut, you need to be smart and in top form in order to achieve success. The sport doesn't reward simple participation. It rewards long-term dedication, attention to detail, in-depth study, and especially the kind of toughness that only comes from the ability to overcome setbacks and NOT QUIT.

The participation-based sports don't have this. They are fun for everyone. You can try it for a year or do it for life. You can train a lot or a little. You can judge your own success by whatever criteria you set.

Bike racing in the pure sense cannot be transformed into one of these participation events. They exist already. We don't need another. Bike racing is an old-school event which doesn't work well with a short attention span. It doesn't work well if you cannot handle a setback. It doesn't work well if you expect enormous success right from the start. It does work quite well for those who have a long view.

The people I personally know who have quit the sport:
- Ex pros who did not like the crazy lifestyle.
- Young and highly talented riders who started winning immediately but eventually had to face reality once they catted up or their winning streak ended.
- People who found another outlet for their need for aerobic endurance sport.
- New parents
- People who lost fitness or gained weight and decided it was too humiliating to return and be less than their former selves.
- People who sustained some sort of injury or illness which changed their physical abilities. (To be honest I think most of these, if bike-related, came from incidents which were not in a race)

Heathpack 06-13-17 07:23 AM


Originally Posted by carpediemracing (Post 19649946)
Finally, "helping others".

I think some volunteering is good. In the old days clubs had to hold races and a club would require its members to work their own race. The penalty for not holding a race was the club couldn't renew its membership or wear its jersey.

However many riders are not good teachers. They may not convey enthusiasm well. Etc. You don't want those people to be your ambassadors.

Simply being an earnest bike racing citizen is great. I saw many riders come and do my races loyally and consistently. Certain ones would never, and I mean never, help out. But they were always there, always racing, and happy to be there. Other ones would try and help out, volunteer or whatever. Again, very consistent, very loyal. Sure, the volunteer ones helped a bit more, but without literally 80 or 90 riders that would show up every year to the Series (and pre-register for the whole Series) it would have been hard to just get started holding the Series.

So just being a consistent, earnest, and good natured bike racer is, for me, a great thing.

What I'm really talking about is that bike racing would benefit from a better ethos- one that expects not just a narrow swath of male humanity to participate but all kinds of people- juniors, women, older masters- and shows committment to figuring out how to make that work. Lots of young male cyclists are like Aaronmcd- the attitude is that they have no responsibility to the sport beyond their own competition and when they're done with that, they walk away and do something else. Yet the entire sport of bike racing is geared towards those guys. And then when those guys cease entering the sport (like they seem to be now), the pyramid starts to crumble.

I agree that the best thing a racing cyclist can do for the sport is show up and race, that makes the fields viable and the sport robust. It's the first "responsibility" of any racing cyclist. But what I'm saying is beyond that, the culture of bike racing would be smart to expect more from people who participate in the sport, some people will always step up. People have different talents and step up in different ways, you'd be surprised what you might get when you have a greater diversity of life experience (age, gender) represented in your bike racing community. It's not about every racing cycist literally teaching someone else to race. Sometimes it's being a training partner once a week, or volunteering at a race, or organizing a clubs finances. Some people are great at social media (and I guarantee you most races could benefit from a greater web or social media presence).

I'm a weird kind of veterinarian and a big part of the ethos of my field is training new people, and one of the ways we gain "status" is by the achievements of people we train. But beyond training people, I could give you a list of all the other things I've volunteered to do and I'm actually only a middling volunteerer, many of my colleagues do way more. The way we're taught to see it is that we're the "haves" and it's our obligation to always help the "have nots" in our field. So it's hard for me to wrap my head around bike racing sometimes, how it supports and is designed for such a narrow type of person. Beyond excluding "other" types of people from racing which is wrong on purely a moral level, it's also stupid because bike racing misses out on all those other things those people could contribute to the sport beyond just showing up for a race.

himespau 06-13-17 07:27 AM

A bad analogy: Last year (I think), my wife got me a 1 day hang gliding lesson for Father's Day. Something like 6 hours for $180 or so. At the end of it all, I think I got maybe a total of 30 seconds of towed flight time in 2 separate flights and was never more than 20 feet off the ground. To me, it was reasonable, I felt I'd learned a lot, and, if it weren't a 8 hour round trip when I've got a 6 and 2 year old back home, something I'd go back and do more of. My wife was like, "all that time and money and you were only up in the air for maybe 30 seconds?" There are different types of people. I'm the sort that likes to learn a lot about what I'm going to do and find the way to do it the best and safest I can - but I'm an overly analytic academic who has a fair share of Sheldon Cooper in him. My wife is a "just show me how do to this and then let me go do it" kind of person who wouldn't appreciate a class taking valuable time that could be spent doing the activity. I get that the Cat 5 was set up as sort of a compromise between the two styles, but I question whether it actually works out that way with so many 4/5 races and people trying to upgrade early.

TheKillerPenguin 06-13-17 07:53 AM

What do retention rates look like in Europe? I am not sure I buy that it's how hard the sport is that pushes people away, considering how big it is over there. The lack of mentorship and skills training for newer riders does seem like a real problem though. I would totally support a mandatory skills clinic for new 5's that runs them through bumping drills and other skills. I'd absolutely volunteer at one. I'd be down with volunteering at a clinic 1x/yr being part of remaining in good standing as a 1 or 2.

TMonk 06-13-17 08:04 AM

I wonder what crashing rates are in Europe. Is there reason to believe that they crash less often over there for some reason???

Doge 06-13-17 08:11 AM

I've mentioned before...
The grouping by age and gender serves us less than just grouping by ability. It is also, by its very nature gender and age discrimination.

Simply, I'd have Cat 1-10 for all local/regional races. All races mixed gender, age, using equipment tied to category, not age. This eliminates these silly 2-3 rider groups that promoters have to offer.

Details would be more like...
Cat 10
52X16 max gear (a Belgium rule for 15-16) but applies to all starters. This makes it harder for a strong, less skilled rider - to just ride away and keeps speed down a bit.
Cat 8 max gear ...
Maybe keep it low profile wheels until Cat 6...(also Belgium rule)

By Cat 5 everyone is riding open gear stuff.

And I'd go back to the way it was that you need to get points in your category to keep it. Maybe limit downgrades to 2 categories. Now, some folks see Cat X as a carrot and once achieved - kinda hang out there / retire.

Doge 06-13-17 08:15 AM


Originally Posted by TMonk (Post 19650260)
I wonder what crashing rates are in Europe. Is there reason to believe that they crash less often over there for some reason???

Crash more. They seem to me more into the sport itself and are interested in who is the fastest, or who will be.

I have not seen masters, or women's racing in Europe. Kids racing is big. Some 170 15-16 year old's and lots of spectators. People track riders, names, stats. People would discuss USA riders and cite what they did in what race.
But crash rates are very high. Part of that is the roads, and part they type of races and maybe more on the line.

topflightpro 06-13-17 08:20 AM


Originally Posted by Doge (Post 19650275)
Now, some folks see Cat X as a carrot and once achieved - kinda hang out there / retire.

It's funny you mention that. When I first started riding, I set a goal to become a Cat 3 by the time I was 35. I did that. But I remember someone asking, now what. I didn't really have an answer. Since then, I've actually struggled to find motivation to race. Getting injured during that time didn't help.

I've spent most of this season racing on the track. It's different, and it's a lot of fun.

bitingduck 06-13-17 08:28 AM


Originally Posted by carpediemracing (Post 19649940)
The last time I did tumbling exercises was 1983 (sprint and jump over 6-8 classmates with just their heads bowed over, and land/roll on a thin mat)? And those skills have stayed with me as well, as evidenced by my tuck and roll in 2009 where I saw pavement in front of me but hit the back of my helmet, not my face.

One of the best things I ever did was take adult tumbling classes. My GF did gymnastics up til college, and then in my late 30's she found a gym near us that had open tumbling after 8 pm and offered cheap coaching a couple nights a week. We went once a week or so for a year or more. It was fun and entertaining, because everybody who showed up was either an ex-gymnast or a stunt-person (this being LA). I sucked at tumbling, but it completely changed the way I crashed. There's a lot of time to plan and react when you're in the air.


Originally Posted by topflightpro (Post 19650070)
The track I've been racing at requires new riders to get certified. It makes sense to me.


Originally Posted by PepeM (Post 19650128)
The velodrome here also requires a certification clining before you can race. I don't think it is very long or formal (haven't been there yet.) Just someone walking you through the process of racing on the track. I am glad they offer that. When I finally decide to show up I rather do that than jump right in into the action, what with me having never ridden a fixed gear bike and not being all that great at looking behind while holding my line.

I taught the pre-race track certification class here for 5 or 6 years. We offered it because when we started having racing I wanted there to be a mechanism for people to be able to move from road to track racing without having to spend 4+ weeks taking the full class, and it also turned out to be a good way to get people to show up to race - instead of $65 for the certification, it was free if you were signed up to race, plus you got to race. The class was a review of rules, safety, terminology, local rules, a few racing tips, and then finally a short test on the track. If you couldn't get up to the blue line and ride safely you didn't pass, and if you looked sketchy or fell you didn't pass. Few, if any, people ever failed, but it did a few important things: 1) it made people take it seriously, including safety. You had to get up there and ride around by yourself with everybody watching, so people paid attention. 2) It let everybody you were going to ride with see you ride for ~15-20 laps. It's not a lot, but it's pretty easy to evaluate people on that many laps. When I first taught the class, I asked the track director "how do I decide if they pass?" and his response was "Would you be willing to get on the track with them after seeing them?", and that was it. 3) it gave the new riders a chance to get on the track and warm up on a nearly empty track (just the other new riders) so they could feel how it was going around, and if they fell they weren't likely to slide into anybody.

It was very effective - we very quickly got to where we could fill cat 4/5 fields, and then have filled cat 5 fields, and we didn't have a lot of issues with crashes. Another thing it did was gave them a person who could tell them what to do/not to do in between or after races without it being a bunch of random self-appointed experts telling people inconsistent things.

gerundium 06-13-17 09:01 AM


Originally Posted by Doge (Post 19650281)
Crash more. They seem to me more into the sport itself and are interested in who is the fastest, or who will be.

I have not seen masters, or women's racing in Europe. Kids racing is big. Some 170 15-16 year old's and lots of spectators. People track riders, names, stats. People would discuss USA riders and cite what they did in what race.
But crash rates are very high. Part of that is the roads, and part they type of races and maybe more on the line.

juniors are nuts in races...

I would venture that crash rates in training are lower here due to higher acceptance and infrastructure geared towards cyclists. I have no comparison for crash rates in racing but there is usually some form of a crash in most races.

globecanvas 06-13-17 09:57 AM


Originally Posted by Grumpy McTrumpy (Post 19650141)
The traditional sport takes no prisoners. You either make the cut or you get dropped, and even if you do make the cut, you need to be smart and in top form in order to achieve success. The sport doesn't reward simple participation. It rewards long-term dedication, attention to detail, in-depth study, and especially the kind of toughness that only comes from the ability to overcome setbacks and NOT QUIT.

The participation-based sports don't have this. They are fun for everyone. You can try it for a year or do it for life. You can train a lot or a little. You can judge your own success by whatever criteria you set.

Bike racing in the pure sense cannot be transformed into one of these participation events. They exist already. We don't need another. Bike racing is an old-school event which doesn't work well with a short attention span. It doesn't work well if you cannot handle a setback. It doesn't work well if you expect enormous success right from the start. It does work quite well for those who have a long view.


This sounds right to me.

echappist 06-13-17 10:32 AM


Originally Posted by aaronmcd (Post 19649139)
Well, now we're talking way pre-cat 5... I mean I guess I'll talk up racing bikes if I'm around kids. One of the kids I coached gymnastics to got a road bike cuz he though it was cool that I raced. Don't have access to children anymore haha. It's not my mission in life to grow the sport, and it's cool that you care about it enough to actually go out and do things. I just really really disagree with creating more barriers at the cat 5 level.


Originally Posted by aaronmcd (Post 19649760)
No you got that wrong. I dont think its my mission in life cuz my mission in life isn't about bikes period. I love racing. But its not the end all be all in life. Making new racers isn't my mission in life cuz there is whole crapload to life. Freedom to live as one wants is the main thing I hope to see in peoples lives.

You disagree with "more barriers" because you think it would reduce participation; regardless if that's just your allegation or if there's more truth to that assertion, fine. Then you trot out the cop out of whatever, it's not important. If you are so nonchalant, why are you opposed to constructive suggestions from others and why do you care that it may dwindle participation? I'd much rather have fewer, more responsible racers than to have people who view the attainment of certain proficiency as "barrier to entry."

here i'm reminded of the argument against philosophers as they are so quick to spot any deficiencies in arguments and proposals of others but end up unable to offer any better suggestions. At least they are actually invested in the issue. You don't want to be altruistic, fine. But you are discouraging others from doing things because you think it may lead to fewer people who compete, and it's the competition per se you are interested in, not the overall environment of bike racing. You've ceded any credibility in your own standing when you declared that you really couldn't care less. What a bunch of cynical, opportunistic drivel.

globecanvas 06-13-17 10:37 AM

Guys let's not burn @aaronmcd at the stake just yet OK? His point of view doesn't really merit name-calling over.

topflightpro 06-13-17 10:48 AM


Originally Posted by globecanvas (Post 19650599)
Guys let's not burn @aaronmcd at the stake just yet OK? His point of view doesn't really merit name-calling over.

And if we are going to burn him, shouldn't we find out if he floats first? Who's got a scale?



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