Originally Posted by
elcruxio
But you'd most likely be faster down a MTB trail with an modern enduro or DH bike as those are more forgiving of bumps, have more traction etc.
I go fast enough, thank you very much. I’m not racing nor pushing for any kind of public speed record.
Ah, but the point isn't really about going over the bars or losing traction. The point is how easily, quickly and accurately you can use your brakes below those thresholds. Having to use less finger force means that you can modulate the clamping force more accurately and more quickly than you could if you had to use more finger force. Also the benefit of hydraulic brakes is low friction in the lines, which further decreases the force requirement. Less squish or give in the system also gives more accurate lever feel and feedback. Even with compressionless housings the cables and housings stretch and compress some, the brake arms flex some and the rubber pads flex some all compounding to more give at the lever. With hydraulic brakes you only really have the hose expanding and perhaps some miniscule amount of seal flex. However it's still far less give than with cable actuated brakes, causing some hydro levers to have a rock hard lever feel to them.
None of which is anything I experience in the braking systems I use…disc or rim. I don’t find that I need to use any excessive force at the levers to stop. If anything, the hydraulics I did use were awful at trying to actually control the bike. I
had to think about how much lever pressure I was using to keep from having brakes that were far too grabby. They had the opposite of what I would call “modulation” or the ability to control how much or how little input was needed to get proper control. I’ve heard people refer to linear (and just about any other rim brake) as being “on/off” but the hydraulics I used were just that.
But it does take more force for different brakes. The differences are huge. I've used mechanical disc brakes with 203mm rotors and V-brakes with compressionless housings and all that, but they both require significantly more force to get the same amount of brake power than any higher than mid tier Shimano hydro brake with even 160mm rotors.
Paul components are probably the best cable actuated stuff there is, but in this case it's not about component quality. Cable actuated just can't get the same performance a hydraulic system can. And if you play around with the flow rates and put in some servo wave like I did, the difference is night and day.
You say that but it is not something that I have experienced. Again, I have a bike with mechanical disc from and linear rear. I have people tell me that discs (of all varieties) takes less force than rim. It’s not something that I have ever experienced. Nor do I find any of the other brakes I have to be difficult to use or require excessive force to bring the bike to a stop.
Example: My road bike has Shimano GRX brakes and 160mm rotors. My touring bike has Shimano Sora levers with TRP Spyres, compressionless full length housings and 160mm rotors. Both have the same compound brake pads. With the touring bike I realistically need two fingers in the drops to get maximum braking and even then I'm tempted to use a third. And all the while I'm worried something's going to give because of the pull on the lever being so great. With the GRX equipped road bike I don't really even need the one. Obviously I need one, but I don't need to use a fraction of the force with the one finger I need with the touring bike with TWO fingers.
Say what? You are claiming that the GRX is telepathic? Come on! With my touring bike I regularly use two fingers
from the hoods and those are my pinky and ring finger…not exactly the strongest fingers on my hand. I seldom brake from the drops, nor do I need to. I’m not braking all the time in panic situations…something these discussions always seem to devolve to discussing…but even when I have had to, I don’t find the bike unresponsive.
The analogy works if instead of one wave of the stick (ie. coming to a halt) you consider constant waving about of the stick (riding down singletrack with constant small decelerations). I've seen downhill race videos where they show the brake telemetry and the riders are constantly pumping the brakes even when you'd think they're going flat out. That's where having more power starts to matter. More force means a less accurate slower movement which inevitably also results in more fatigue. So, waving a light stick compared to waving a heavy stick.
Again, not racing. But hand fatigue because of excessive braking isn’t something that has ever been a problem while riding. I don’t drag my brakes and only use them in short bursts. Even on high speed and/or technical downhills, I use brakes moderately and have never had any kind of hand fatigue. It just doesn’t happen for me.
There have been some truly bad hydraulic brakes made over the years (mostly SRAM and Avid stuff), but also brakes that almost never disappoint (Magura) and brakes which have only somewhat recently become top tier (Shimano). Unfortunately in hydraulic systems brand and tier level matters quite at bit whereas in cable actuated stuff not so much.
Yes, the brakes were Avid but, oddly, they were sold and reviewed as having excellent modulation…far better than any rim brake. The same claims are made today and I’ve ridden some of the others. Still not impressed. I just haven’t experienced anything that is vastly superior or even moderately superior for that matter.
That's true. For me rim brakes aren't more dangerous, certain cold conditions nonwithstanding, but rather slower because of the reasons mentioned above. But admittedly on road in sunny weather there probably isn't a difference in speed.
Those reasons for a rim brake bike being slower are your own reasons. I don’t find myself slowing down just because I have rim brakes. The fastest I’ve ever gone on a single was on a rim brake equipped bike. And the fastest I’ve ever gone on a tandem was on a cantilever equipped one. Brake type doesn’t determine how fast I go. I do a lot of twisty downhills paved roads here in Colorado and have never done one with a disc equipped bike because I don’t own a disc road bike. That doesn’t stop me from going fast. Brakes are not a consideration to how fast I go because I’m confident in my brakes and my ability to use them.