Originally Posted by
base2
You are not wrong, but people always ask about spokes because it helps to consider the whole wheel as a complete package. The assumption is the wheel is to be constructed with symmetry & consistancy.
In my experience people
seldom ask about spokes. They think about the rim and the hub and spokes are almost always an afterthought. Rims really should be the after thought.
Originally Posted by
base2
I just doesn't make sense to ask about using 16 spokes on a 24 hole hub mated to a 32 hole rim. You could do it. It would pencil out if you were savvy. But why? Talking in terms of spoke number standardizes the conversation with known knowns & gives all parties in the conversation a standard reference point to operate from.
Huh? I don't follow. No one has suggested that. It seems rather pointless to even consider it.
Originally Posted by
Kedosto
The problem is, if one doesn't go with an appropriately strong rim, the spokes can pull through or the rim develops cracks at the nipples. I'd be happy if I could get back only a portion of the money I spent on wheel builds using cheaper, lighter rims based on advice like yours (not from you specifically).
There are few rims made today that aren't "sufficiently strong" to take the tension of just about any spoke. I also have never found lighter rims to be "cheaper". The mistake that many people make is to think that a heavier rim is somehow thicker and "stronger" than a lighter time. They both use about the same thickness of material in the walls of the rim. Heavier rims tend to just be wider. Adding width does nothing to prevent spoke pull through if that is going to be a problem.
Even if a heavier rim were had the same outside dimension but had thicker walls, the walls aren't significantly thicker. Consider the
Velocity Dyad and the
Velocity A23. They have very similar profiles and there is a 125g difference between them. That translates to 40 cubic centimeters of aluminum in terms of volume. There is a 4mm difference in width and height. Doing the math, that works out to (about) 80 cubic centimeters in volume. All the weight difference is taken up in the difference in dimensions. The difference might even make the Dyad a little thinner than the A23.
Aluminum is also very soft. An increase in wall thickness is going to give limited returns in terms of strength.
Originally Posted by
Kedosto
IMO, a quality wheel build includes a sufficiently strong rim, appropriate spoke choice in an appropriate number, a quality hub, and attention to detail during the building process. Cut corners in any one area and accept an inferior build. Your Alpine III suggestion is good (although there are those who would cry "overkill"), but lacing them to an inferior rim would be a waste of time and effort. I agree the wheel would be "much better," right up until the point of rim failure. I think the expression is "throwing good money after bad."
I don't disagree on your points about a quality build but I think far too much emphasis is placed on the rim. There are very few "inferior" rims out there. You'd almost have to
search for one. Even the ones that many people think are "inferior"...like the Alex rims...are adequate rims for most any application...even for loaded touring bikes.
Additionally, rim failure due to cracking is more related to the build quality than to the rim.
Originally Posted by
Kedosto
I'm not disagreeing entirely, a lot of people do think rim when they should be thinking spokes, but suggesting Alpine III's on stock rims is probably a bad idea. I'm not entirely sure the Alpines would seat at the hub flange either, but I'm not an Alpine/hub expert. I just know I wouldn't want to spend my time and money on lacing 16 or 24 Alpines into a wheel only to watch the rim crack apart in the next 300 miles. So then I'm out the rim, the spokes, the time, and the money.
Again, I don't think you can dismiss "stock" rims out of hand. If the rim has a double wall, it is probably good enough for just about any spoke.
The Alpines will seat in just about any rim I've run across. The holes in the hub are drilled so that a 2.3mm threaded section will pass through them...they are usually drilled to 2.5mm. The 2.3mm head of the Alpine III will pass through because the 2.3mm spoke thread section passes through. Silver Alpine III's are a bit thinner than black versions due to the coating but they are harder to find in the US. Pillar makes a triple butted spoke that is 2.2mm which is just slightly weaker than the 2.3mm Alpine III.
Originally Posted by
Kedosto
More to the OP's post...
Your rim and hub choices are sound. I'd go no less than 28 front 32 rear and no less than double butted spokes. 32/36 if you're planning on carrying anything or don't really lose the weight. I recommend you find a local, reputable wheel builder so you can deal directly with any potential follow-up issues.
Finally, I would challenge you to consider the downsides of the possibility of using more spokes than you might actually need. There really aren't any. Well sure, there's the weight. But how much did you say you weigh? I'm right there with you. Are you the caliber of rider who can detect a few extra grams during acceleration? Me neither.
-Kedosto
I agree with what you say here. The T11 is a fantastic hub and I would suggest getting the matching rear in the spoke counts you suggest. Even better if you can find one in a cool color.