One of the shameful things about this argument -- and here I won't make any comments regarding either side's propositions -- is that some of the participants are slinging mud. That's just a lousy way to argue: the person under attack is smeared and the attacker's argument is weakened. Comparing people to nazis and making comments like, "and people believe the moon landing was faked" ... Come on.
At least John isn't going out of his way to insult you guys. And from the recent posts I've read neither is ClosetBiker.