seeker333

Thanks (noticed it but failed to include in earlier comments). What I didn't notice is that the new dropouts extend well into the seatstays now, especially on the NDS for brake torque stiffening. I think I was mistaken about the flat mount brake mounts reducing frameset weight; with the new rear dropouts, 4 additional fork bosses, and longer cable/housing to accommodate brifters on the Complete bike, I believe the 2020 DT gained some weight.

Evidently the marketing/design folks at QBP (parent of Surly and Salsa - their cubicles are probably only 20 feet apart in the Minneapolis headquarters) think IGH/Alfine/Rohloff devotees would be better served by the Salsa Marrakesh (MK), with it's swinging rear dropouts for chain tensioning requirement of the IGH. This would make sense except for the fact that with 2020 DT frameset price increase it is now nearly the same as MK ($725 vs 799).

The cost/value comparison is worse if you are shopping for a bicycle (the majority of bicyclists), since a DT at $1675 is actually more expensive than two still available 2019 models of MK at $1499 and 1599. Once the 2019 models are sold, DT will be slightly less expensive than the 2020 MK at $1799, however when you add racks to DT so that components are comparable, DT will be same or slightly higher cost than MK. Disappointing shift as in the past Salsa was always Surly's fancier, pricier cousin, and Surly was the value choice.

Whether you choose DT or MK, with sales tax you're paying nearly $2,000 for a bicycle with racks and rather low level parts. You can buy an electric motorbike which could be used for touring now for about half as much. My guess is a lot of people would choose the bike you don't have to pedal for half the price.

I rewatched the YT video from #1. I noticed it states LHT started in 2007, which is not quite true. The LHT frameset started in 2004, the LHT Complete (bicycle) started in 2007 along with a few other Surly models, when they transitioned from being solely a frame/frameset seller to a bicycle seller. At 1:33 we see how tight the front thru axle lever fit is WRT rack and fender mounts. At 2:50 we see the front flat brake mount tubes nearly bisect the NDS fork leg twice (not visible from Surly site images).

Reviewing the geometry tables again, I see the 26" DT BB drop went from 47 to 50mm, and the 700c BB drop from 78 to 80mm. All other things being equal, this should reduce standover height (SOH) 2-3mm, or 1/8"! However, if you compare 2019 700c DTs to 2020 700c DT, the listed SOHs are identical. Math error? On 26" frames SOH increases 8mm on 42 and 46cm, but decreases 8-12mm on 50 to 56 frame sizes (58/26 no longer available). Thus again I question the accuracy of the YT video claim of "decreased SOH" since geometry tables indicate this is the case in only 4 of 11 frame/wheel sizes offered (50/26, 52/26, 54/26 and 56/26 are the only ones with decreased SOH).

Reach is 0-6mm shorter on the 2020 DTs depending on size. Stack increased 18-25mm depending on size. STA and HTA unchanged on all size/wheel combinations. Fork ATC and rake unchanged for 2020.

https://surlybikes.com/bikes/legacy/..._2012#overview

https://surlybikes.com/bikes/disc_trucker