New bikes, and the creeping cost of entry to our favorite sport
#251
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NE Indiana
Posts: 8,690
Bikes: 2020 Masi Giramondo 700c; 2013 Lynskey Peloton; 1992 Giant Rincon; 1989 Dawes needs parts; 1985 Trek 660; 1985 Fuji Club; 1984 Schwinn Voyager; 1984 Miyata 612; 1977 Raleigh Competition GS
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1128 Post(s)
Liked 257 Times
in
207 Posts
I've actually read posts like that, I do frequent other forums, but I think I remember hearing of people doing that on this one, this is why some guys have a lot of bikes in their stable.
#252
Advanced Slacker
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6,215
Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Canfielld Tilt
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2764 Post(s)
Liked 2,540 Times
in
1,434 Posts
The frame was Tenax, which was Columbus brand Cro Moly. Maybe I should have kept the Schwinn and figured out a way to make it work. Maybe a shorter stem, and some new bars might have done the trick. Or kept as it and my son could have grown into it. But that was years ago. Better that someone else got a chance to enjoy it, and I am happy with my Salsa Casserol, which is the best bike I have ever owned, even if the frame is generic Taiwan made Cro Moly instead of Columbus. Even though I wanted to love friction shifting, in the end, I just prefer indexed shifting, and having the controls at my fingertips rather than on the downtube.
Do you have the 1st gen (with caliper brakes) or the 2nd gen (with cantis)?
I’ve got a 1st gen (wife rides it now), and I find the ride quality top notch, regardless of the type of steel they used.
#253
Senior Member
Give me a break. If you read my original post, my concern isn't for myself. I will pay what I have to for the quality I want. So this isn't about me. And it isn't about blaming it on greedy capitalists, though that might be a factor here. This is about those looking to get into this game. And no, the Trek and Specialized you linked to are not counter examples. They are indeed examples of my original point.
As for the economics lesson, thank you, but I do not believe that markets are perfect. There are supply interruptions, and there is short term profit seeking that may hurt the industry in the long run.
As for the economics lesson, thank you, but I do not believe that markets are perfect. There are supply interruptions, and there is short term profit seeking that may hurt the industry in the long run.
paid 700$ For a specialized entry level roll sport
tourney shimano on it no disc brakes 7 speed ?!
#254
Senior Member
Specialized roll
Give me a break. If you read my original post, my concern isn't for myself. I will pay what I have to for the quality I want. So this isn't about me. And it isn't about blaming it on greedy capitalists, though that might be a factor here. This is about those looking to get into this game. And no, the Trek and Specialized you linked to are not counter examples. They are indeed examples of my original point.
As for the economics lesson, thank you, but I do not believe that markets are perfect. There are supply interruptions, and there is short term profit seeking that may hurt the industry in the long run.
As for the economics lesson, thank you, but I do not believe that markets are perfect. There are supply interruptions, and there is short term profit seeking that may hurt the industry in the long run.
paid 700$ For a specialized entry level roll sport
tourney shimano on it no disc brakes 7 speed ?!
#255
Senior Member
Rolls sport
looks like I got ripped off paid 700$ for entry level roll sport 2021 tourney and no disc brakes 7 speed ?!
#256
Senior Member
This is a variation on a theme I see from time to time. I am not really concerned for myself, as I have a nice bike that I have invested in new wheels, and have otherwise maintained over the years.
I have seen a creep up in new bike prices in recent years. Where as if you asked me 5 or 6 years ago, what it the minimum price to pay for a good basic bike for al around use, such as neighborhood ride, MUPs, light off road, or even group or charity rides of 50 miles or less, I would have said, $400 to $500. Today, I would say $700 to $800. And I don't really like telling people this. Often a beginner will be looking for not one, but maybe two bikes. One for themselves, and one for a spouse. So where as in the past, I would have said, you can probably get started for $1,000 or less, now that price is almost $2,000, for two people.
So what happened? Is it tariffs? Corporate greed? Demand for bikes boosted by the pandemic while supply chain got interrupted last year?
Hard to say.
One thing I have noticed with the big brands is pushing disc brakes, which is pushing up the price of the entry level, while leaving the budget bikes without disc brakes also seriously under spec'd. For example, the Trek FX1 retails for $500, but has a 7 speed freewheel. Not so long ago, you could get an FX 7.2 with 8 speed freehub for around $500, and Giant made an 8 speed Escape 2 for $460, and you could even get a carbon fork 9 speed Escape 1 for $650.
Today, if you want an 8 speed Trek or Giant (or any other major brand), you have to get one with disc brakes, and it will cost you $700. If you want carbon fork, or 9 speed, you are talking about $800 to $900.
I find this frustrating not so much for a bike enthusiast like myself, but for those looking to get into the sport. The entry level price seems high for what you are getting, especially compared to just a few years ago. It would literally cost the major brands a couple of bucks per unit to offer a $500 bike with an 8 speed freehub and cassette over the barely better than department store bike 7 speed freewheel. And, for $700, I hate to seem like a Luddite, but better wheels, and drivetrain seem like a better thing to offer the customer at that price point than disc brakes.
So to put a finer point on this, I think $500 is a reasonable entry point into the sport for a good, basic bike. But is it too much to ask that the manufacturers at least equip said bike with a freehub, and decent drivetrain components?
Anybody else have thoughts on this?
I have seen a creep up in new bike prices in recent years. Where as if you asked me 5 or 6 years ago, what it the minimum price to pay for a good basic bike for al around use, such as neighborhood ride, MUPs, light off road, or even group or charity rides of 50 miles or less, I would have said, $400 to $500. Today, I would say $700 to $800. And I don't really like telling people this. Often a beginner will be looking for not one, but maybe two bikes. One for themselves, and one for a spouse. So where as in the past, I would have said, you can probably get started for $1,000 or less, now that price is almost $2,000, for two people.
So what happened? Is it tariffs? Corporate greed? Demand for bikes boosted by the pandemic while supply chain got interrupted last year?
Hard to say.
One thing I have noticed with the big brands is pushing disc brakes, which is pushing up the price of the entry level, while leaving the budget bikes without disc brakes also seriously under spec'd. For example, the Trek FX1 retails for $500, but has a 7 speed freewheel. Not so long ago, you could get an FX 7.2 with 8 speed freehub for around $500, and Giant made an 8 speed Escape 2 for $460, and you could even get a carbon fork 9 speed Escape 1 for $650.
Today, if you want an 8 speed Trek or Giant (or any other major brand), you have to get one with disc brakes, and it will cost you $700. If you want carbon fork, or 9 speed, you are talking about $800 to $900.
I find this frustrating not so much for a bike enthusiast like myself, but for those looking to get into the sport. The entry level price seems high for what you are getting, especially compared to just a few years ago. It would literally cost the major brands a couple of bucks per unit to offer a $500 bike with an 8 speed freehub and cassette over the barely better than department store bike 7 speed freewheel. And, for $700, I hate to seem like a Luddite, but better wheels, and drivetrain seem like a better thing to offer the customer at that price point than disc brakes.
So to put a finer point on this, I think $500 is a reasonable entry point into the sport for a good, basic bike. But is it too much to ask that the manufacturers at least equip said bike with a freehub, and decent drivetrain components?
Anybody else have thoughts on this?
so shimano tourney cheap stuff ?! 7 speed no good ? Entry level bike for 700$ too much I think for sure
#257
Senior Member
It is harder to keep track of Cannondale's old specs because they don't archive it like Trek does. But according to this website, Cannondale has downgraded the Quick 6 from just 2 years ago, when the Quick 6 had a Shimano 9 speed drivetrain, and now it is downgraded to 7 speed, and Microshift 7 speed at that. https://99spokes.com/bikes/cannondale/2019/quick-6
If you wanted to make a point of a brand offering good value, IMO, Kona is a better example. Their Dew plus commuter in 2015 was a 3 x 8, and sold for a little under $700. Today's Dew Plus has 1 x 10 drivetrain, and 650b tires, and through axles instead of quick release. now that is good value for the money. Generic 7 speed freewheel for $650 or Tourney 7 speed for $700 is not.
Even so, that is still a lot of money for entry level.
If you wanted to make a point of a brand offering good value, IMO, Kona is a better example. Their Dew plus commuter in 2015 was a 3 x 8, and sold for a little under $700. Today's Dew Plus has 1 x 10 drivetrain, and 650b tires, and through axles instead of quick release. now that is good value for the money. Generic 7 speed freewheel for $650 or Tourney 7 speed for $700 is not.
Even so, that is still a lot of money for entry level.
kona dew plus is now 779$ on their website if you get it by local shop they ll add extras like assembly etc at least another 100$ They will add so would be almost 900$ bike .
#258
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,460
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,761 Times
in
2,560 Posts
Bike shops don't add for assembly, that comes out of the retail price. If anyone is doing that, it's just price gouging.
Likes For unterhausen:
#259
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 6,319
Bikes: 2012 Salsa Casseroll, 2009 Kona Blast
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1031 Post(s)
Liked 208 Times
in
146 Posts
Casseroll is an awesome, underrated/overlooked bike IMO. I’m really bummed Salsa discontinued it.
Do you have the 1st gen (with caliper brakes) or the 2nd gen (with cantis)?
I’ve got a 1st gen (wife rides it now), and I find the ride quality top notch, regardless of the type of steel they used.
Do you have the 1st gen (with caliper brakes) or the 2nd gen (with cantis)?
I’ve got a 1st gen (wife rides it now), and I find the ride quality top notch, regardless of the type of steel they used.
Last edited by MRT2; 05-02-21 at 11:57 AM.
#260
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 6,319
Bikes: 2012 Salsa Casseroll, 2009 Kona Blast
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1031 Post(s)
Liked 208 Times
in
146 Posts
Nope. The retail price should include assembly, adjustments, even free tuneups for 1 to 2 years after purchase.
#261
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 6,319
Bikes: 2012 Salsa Casseroll, 2009 Kona Blast
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1031 Post(s)
Liked 208 Times
in
146 Posts
I got one roll sport for my fiancé I m new to biking so I don’t know much paid roll sport entry level 700$ plus taxes etc almost 760$-770$ and I still need a bike for myself thank god I found this forum at least I m looking for myself not to make same mistakes . So did I get ripped off with this purchase she likes it it looks high end bike compare to many but is it ?
so shimano tourney cheap stuff ?! 7 speed no good ? Entry level bike for 700$ too much I think for sure
so shimano tourney cheap stuff ?! 7 speed no good ? Entry level bike for 700$ too much I think for sure
It isn't that 7 speed is no good, but rather, it is very old technology. My 1997 Bianchi had 7 speed. That was almost a quarter century ago. While most people can certainly get by with 7 speeds, the level of quality of modern 7 speeds has nowhere to go but down, as nobody is introducing higher quality 7 speed components. So for example, my 1997 bike with 7 speed was middle of the road technology then, and mid level quality. In those days, something like Tourney or Altus was 6 speed, followed by Acera, and STX, which was 7 speed, followed by Deore and above, which was 8 speed. Fast forward to today and among hybrids and mountain bikes, 7 speed tourney is the lowest of the low for Shimano. (there are some cheaper brands, like Microshift that also sell product, and actually some brands sell microshift instead of Shimano). Altus is the next up, and that is usually 8 speed. That is followed by Acera and Alivio, which are 9 speed. Deore and above are 10 and 11 speed. I do not expect modern entry level bikes to be 10 or 11 speed, but 8 or 9 speed? Sure, you bet I do.
As I have said earlier in this thread, I thought 7 speed was on the way out 10 years ago, as the only bikes that had them were the most entry level, usually bikes selling for less than $400.. But brands like Specialized, Cannondale, Giant and Trek are putting entry level Tourney on $700, even $750 bikes which IMO is greedy. It would literally cost them a couple of bucks more to put 8 speed components on those bikes. Where as the cost to you, the consumer to upgrade from 7 speeds to 8 speed is a couple of hundred bucks at least as you likely would need a new back wheel, cassette, derailleur and shifter. At that cost, if you wanted to upgrade the drivetrain, you would need to think long and hard about it as some might say you might as well start over and just buy a better bike.
Last edited by MRT2; 05-02-21 at 12:13 PM.
#262
Senior Member
#263
Senior Member
#264
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 8,038
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7084 Post(s)
Liked 11,188 Times
in
4,782 Posts
Likes For Koyote:
#265
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,099 Times
in
5,054 Posts
I got one roll sport for my fiancé I m new to biking so I don’t know much paid roll sport entry level 700$ plus taxes etc almost 760$-770$ and I still need a bike for myself thank god I found this forum at least I m looking for myself not to make same mistakes . So did I get ripped off with this purchase she likes it it looks high end bike compare to many but is it ?
so shimano tourney cheap stuff ?! 7 speed no good ? Entry level bike for 700$ too much I think for sure
so shimano tourney cheap stuff ?! 7 speed no good ? Entry level bike for 700$ too much I think for sure
Seven speeds is perfectly reasonable for the Roll. It's a nice bike, well-built, and it's designed to be comfortable. If your fiance is enjoying it, it's worth the $700 plus taxes. Yes, you could pay less for a seven speed, but it wouldn't be anything like a Roll, and she probably wouldn't like it.
Likes For livedarklions:
#266
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 8,038
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7084 Post(s)
Liked 11,188 Times
in
4,782 Posts
And to reiterate, this thread was started by a poster who understands little about the marketplace. $700 for your Roll Sport is just fine, esp if your fiance likes the bike. And frankly, finding anything right now is a victory.
Likes For Koyote:
#267
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 6,319
Bikes: 2012 Salsa Casseroll, 2009 Kona Blast
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1031 Post(s)
Liked 208 Times
in
146 Posts
By the way, it sure looks to me like the Roll Sport does have disc brakes, and an Altus (not Tourney) rear derailleur.
And to reiterate, this thread was started by a poster who understands little about the marketplace. $700 for your Roll Sport is just fine, esp if your fiance likes the bike. And frankly, finding anything right now is a victory.
And to reiterate, this thread was started by a poster who understands little about the marketplace. $700 for your Roll Sport is just fine, esp if your fiance likes the bike. And frankly, finding anything right now is a victory.
Shifting gears, so to speak would you buy 7 speed Tourney for yourself? I hear a lot of people say Tourney is fine for entry level, but would you buy it for yourself or recommend it to your friends?
Last edited by MRT2; 05-03-21 at 12:27 PM.
Likes For MRT2:
#268
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 8,038
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7084 Post(s)
Liked 11,188 Times
in
4,782 Posts
To answer your question: I actually do own a Roll, but mine is much older (2012 or so) and even cheaper than the poster's. It retailed for $550 back then. It does not have Tourney derailleurs - in fact, it has NO derailleurs. And it was a bargain. A very good bike.
#269
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 6,319
Bikes: 2012 Salsa Casseroll, 2009 Kona Blast
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1031 Post(s)
Liked 208 Times
in
146 Posts
That's not an ad hominem attack. My conclusion is based entirely on the faulty arguments you've made through this entire thread.
To answer your question: I actually do own a Roll, but mine is much older (2012 or so) and even cheaper than the poster's. It retailed for $550 back then. It does not have Tourney derailleurs - in fact, it has NO derailleurs. And it was a bargain. A very good bike.
To answer your question: I actually do own a Roll, but mine is much older (2012 or so) and even cheaper than the poster's. It retailed for $550 back then. It does not have Tourney derailleurs - in fact, it has NO derailleurs. And it was a bargain. A very good bike.
Likes For MRT2:
#270
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
Tourney DR I'm fine with if I was replacing a part, tho pointless on a road bike where claris isn't that much more
#271
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 8,038
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7084 Post(s)
Liked 11,188 Times
in
4,782 Posts
This is what you have failed to understand through this entire ridiculous thread: what you or I would purchase, or what we even think constitutes a good value, is irrelevant. Enough people are buying such bikes that manufacturers keep producing them. That's how a market system works.
By the way: as has already been pointed out several times in this thread, the typical person who's looking at a $700 townie bike doesn't even know the difference between a freewheel and a freehub. Don't believe me? Ask your non-cyclist friends about it - you'll be met with blank stares. So, why would customers care about something if they don't even know what they would be caring about?
#272
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 6,319
Bikes: 2012 Salsa Casseroll, 2009 Kona Blast
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1031 Post(s)
Liked 208 Times
in
146 Posts
As for Claris, it is ok. I would say for example, the Claris rear derailleur we put on my wife's Jamis is an improvement over the 2300 derailleur the bike came with. And the Claris shifters are better than those thumb shifters of the previous gen 8 speed Shimano used to sell. (my wife still uses the thumb shifters and she is OK with them, but I don't like them)
If I were buying a new road bike, I think I would want at least Sora level components, but if a friend really wanted a new road bike and was on a budget, I would tell them to just go with Claris
Likes For MRT2:
#273
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 6,319
Bikes: 2012 Salsa Casseroll, 2009 Kona Blast
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1031 Post(s)
Liked 208 Times
in
146 Posts
I wouldn't take cigarettes, K-Pop downloads, or Bud Light if they were all being given away for free; does that mean that they are poor values?
This is what you have failed to understand through this entire ridiculous thread: what you or I would purchase, or what we even think constitutes a good value, is irrelevant. Enough people are buying such bikes that manufacturers keep producing them. That's how a market system works.
By the way: as has already been pointed out several times in this thread, the typical person who's looking at a 00 townie bike doesn't even know the difference between a freewheel and a freehub. Don't believe me? Ask your non-cyclist friends about it - you'll be met with blank stares. So, why$7 would customers care about something if they don't even know what they would be caring about?
This is what you have failed to understand through this entire ridiculous thread: what you or I would purchase, or what we even think constitutes a good value, is irrelevant. Enough people are buying such bikes that manufacturers keep producing them. That's how a market system works.
By the way: as has already been pointed out several times in this thread, the typical person who's looking at a 00 townie bike doesn't even know the difference between a freewheel and a freehub. Don't believe me? Ask your non-cyclist friends about it - you'll be met with blank stares. So, why$7 would customers care about something if they don't even know what they would be caring about?
Imagine for a second the frustration of a newbie who goes out and buys a Wal Mart bike, finds out he or she wasted his money. A month 6 months, or a year later, goes to a bike shop and plunks down $500, $600 or even $700 on a bike he or she thinks is a premium product because of the relatively high price compared to the big box store bike. And because it is assembled hopefully by a competent mechanic and supported by the brand, and the store, it works ok for awhile. Until that person finds the entry level components just don't stay in tune all that well, or the person runs into problems with the wheels, or freewheel. Comes back and finds out that maybe they should have bought a bike with a freehub, even though they didn't even know what a freehub was. (I sure didn't when I started). So, how much for a freehub? Well, you can't just get a new freehub, you need a new wheel. And cassette. And maybe a new shifter. And since you are replacing all that stuff, you probably also need a new chain.
This has to be very frustrating for the person who just wants something that works, works well, and won't need to be replaced or upgraded for many years.
#274
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 8,038
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7084 Post(s)
Liked 11,188 Times
in
4,782 Posts
People don't know what they don't know. That is why Wal Mart continues to sell poor quality bikes at less than $200.
Imagine for a second the frustration of a newbie who goes out and buys a Wal Mart bike, finds out he or she wasted his money. A month 6 months, or a year later, goes to a bike shop and plunks down $500, $600 or even $700 on a bike he or she thinks is a premium product because of the relatively high price compared to the big box store bike. And because it is assembled hopefully by a competent mechanic and supported by the brand, and the store, it works ok for awhile. Until that person finds the entry level components just don't stay in tune all that well, or the person runs into problems with the wheels, or freewheel. Comes back and finds out that maybe they should have bought a bike with a freehub, even though they didn't even know what a freehub was. (I sure didn't when I started). So, how much for a freehub? Well, you can't just get a new freehub, you need a new wheel. And cassette. And maybe a new shifter. And since you are replacing all that stuff, you probably also need a new chain.
This has to be very frustrating for the person who just wants something that works, works well, and won't need to be replaced or upgraded for many years.
Imagine for a second the frustration of a newbie who goes out and buys a Wal Mart bike, finds out he or she wasted his money. A month 6 months, or a year later, goes to a bike shop and plunks down $500, $600 or even $700 on a bike he or she thinks is a premium product because of the relatively high price compared to the big box store bike. And because it is assembled hopefully by a competent mechanic and supported by the brand, and the store, it works ok for awhile. Until that person finds the entry level components just don't stay in tune all that well, or the person runs into problems with the wheels, or freewheel. Comes back and finds out that maybe they should have bought a bike with a freehub, even though they didn't even know what a freehub was. (I sure didn't when I started). So, how much for a freehub? Well, you can't just get a new freehub, you need a new wheel. And cassette. And maybe a new shifter. And since you are replacing all that stuff, you probably also need a new chain.
This has to be very frustrating for the person who just wants something that works, works well, and won't need to be replaced or upgraded for many years.
Likes For Koyote:
#275
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 6,319
Bikes: 2012 Salsa Casseroll, 2009 Kona Blast
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1031 Post(s)
Liked 208 Times
in
146 Posts
But none of what you have written here really relates to your original complaint, does it? You seem to think that manufacturers should magically be able to put better components ("better" meaning that they meet with your approval, even though you're not in that market) without charging a higher price. But you've given zero evidence that this is possible.
Specialized sells its Roll Sport for $800, with a mix of Tourney and Altus drivetrain, mechanical discs, and 3 x 7 drivetrain.
Somehow the smaller company, with less economy of scale is managing to sell a better product at a lower price. So it is possible.