Road Fan

Six Jours, that bike has a beautiful fork! What's the rake, and what's the head angle? And how did you get those blades so thin at the ends? It looks delicate even for 531!

Grim

Beautiful!
Tell us more about the brackets you have for the shifters.

Six jours

Thanks, Road fan. The head angle is 74 and the rake is about 60mm. It took me three jig designs and a box full of crumpled blades to come up with a solution. Essentially it requires carefully supported blades and a roller lever that applies pressure very close to the mandrel. The diameter of the blades themselves is standard; the picture just makes them look unusual.

redxj

Kelly Take Offs

gomango

I just started to acquire parts for my 1977 Trek TX700.

This is a mock up of the bike, everything is held together finger tight.




Today I picked up:
Suntour bar end shifters
Suntour Superbe front and rear derailleurs
Three nice old Nitto water bottle cages. I am looking for a handlebar adapter for water bottles.

And earlier:
Brooks brown leather wrap for the bars. A blazing bike swap deal for $20!
MKS touring pedals with Campy cages and Binda straps
Two wheel sets given to me by an old riding buddy. Campy Record/Mavic GP4 tubs and a nice set of Campy Record/ Reflex clinchers. Future considerations on these.

Thought I had brakes figured out until a couple of you let me know I was going down the wrong road. I have Nuovo Record levers and no calipers. What should I use so I have plenty of clearance for fenders and wider tires?

The main purpose of this bike will be to make a more comfortable long distance ride this summer as we go from St. Paul to Grand Rapids, Manitoba along the shore of Lake Winnipeg. I did this ride last year on my Eddy Merckx Century. I will also use it on 50-75 mile weekly rides with a newly formed group here.

Also, with this lack of braze ons, what racks will I want to consider? I really want a front bag badly, and I'll use an old set of Ortliebs on the rear.

Guys, please give me input/concerns. Thank you in advance.
Cheers,
Gomango

Road Fan

I've been looking at the geo of my Woodrup, and so far I see seat/head angles of 74/73 degrees, with rake 56 mm, just about the same as an RB-1. This gives trail of 44 mm. Typical "racy" vintage bikes with that head angle would be about 40-45 mm, so by your "add 2 to 3 cm" approach, I should try to have a target rake of 60-70 mm. It already has the bends focused near the end, and is cushy. Adding that extra cm (56mm raked up to 66 mm) would only add to this comfort. The fork is 375 mm from brake drilling to dropout center, having been made for 27" with fenders. With 700x32c and fenders it should still have good clearance after raking.

My late-'60s PX-10 might be a decent candidate as well, with a head angle of 73 degrees and 50 mm rake. However, the fork clearance is a little close with 23 mm tubulars and fenders, so it might not have enough room once raked.

Jan Heine talks about some bikes with geo in these ranges exhibiting shimmy (for example the Toei he reviewed), as does framebuilder Tony Oliver. Oliver's solution is not to design bikes this way - he recommends 71 degrees/56 mm for loaded touring bikes, but does not give a clear recommendation for audax or rando bikes. Heine says (as you noted) that needle bearing headsets can add stability, presumably based on added friction, or friction damping. Have you ever solved a shimmy problem using one? The only anecdote I've seen is the one I just repeated - haven't seen anyone saying they actually solved it using a Stronglight or similar headset.

Road Fan

Those are wonderful frames, but it's not going to have the kind of front end geometry being talked about for carrying front loads. You can look up the spec'd geometry on the www.vintage-trek.com site, if you can read off the serial number from the BB shell. It should start with a letter on that old girl. I suspect (but I might not remember this corrrectly ... ) there's a 700 design with about 44 mm rake, and a 710 design with about 50 mm rake.

gomango

Thanks for the reply. If I can carry a small load up front, along with light loads in the back, I'll be more comfy than past years. I've mainly ridden my Colnago MXL and my Century on this trip. Even if I can carry a spare tire, rain wear, and a few other incidentals I'll be fine. Lighter is usually better at this distance.

Monkey Face

This is mine. Build just completed - all Centaur 50/34 + 13-29. I've added quick release Crud Catcher Roadracer fenders since taking the picture.

Barrettscv 

I always thought the Centaur 50/34 + 13-29 would make an ideal century ride drivetrain.

Six jours

Six cm. is about the max I've been able to coax out of fork blades before I start losing some of them. I know it can be done, but I still haven't found a way to reliably do it. Seven cm. is probably unreachable, with my equipment. And of course, it's one thing to mangle a $15 fork blade and another to destroy a $200 fork.

Sounds like Tony Oliver is building bikes for low mounts and/or rear loads. My experience with slack head angles and handlebar bags has been somewhat unpleasant.

I have absolutely found that needle bearing headsets reduce shimmy and instability, and they also last forever. (The Stronglight headset on the pictured bike upthread is 20 years old and withstood two seasons of Belgian roadracing.) I was delighted to see Jan speak positively of them. One super low trail frame I built shimmied at several different speeds with a ball bearing headset, and not at all with the needle bearing one. I am convinced that the boutique ball bearing headsets like the Chris King are a step in the wrong direction.

martl

here is my first classic, and with a bit of family history.

in the early 1950ies, when he wasn't busy at the university, my uncle worked in a mine to earn some badly needed money in post-war germany. A major part of his salary went into a brand new Girardengo bike, which he bought as a frameset and built up with mainly french pieces. He took it to italy for a trip, where he and his buddy qickly learned to listen to the inhabitants of whichever village they ended each days trip, where the sympathies were - Coppi or Bartali; cheering for the right one granted a free meal and wine for that evening

When he left munich for his first job, the bike spent a few years in the attic until my dad found it and used it to commute for several years. This is how it looked like then, with most of the original parts still on it bar the rack.



shortly after that pic (mid-70ies), he took it to a local dealer to have it modernized, so the old parts were replaced with modern stuff - a Simplex LJ derailleur and some unexpensive parts like an Aero Coronado crank. Sadly (from todays collectors perspective), all the original parts were lost.

i took it in about 1990, made it a randonneur and took it to italy again. I didn't have too much money either, so my camping equipment was bulky and heavy. I rode the Tonale between the Lago di Garda and the Lago di Como, the first major climb of my cycling life then; many, many followed till today, but this one remained the hardest, with a gearing of 42/26 and the bike with luggage easily topped 30kg.




After that, i repainted it in the colors of the tricolore and rebuilt it with some better parts; A Victory triple was installed, Deore XT gear, and long reach Shimano 600 brakes.



a couple of years later, i had it shipped to the Patelli factory for rechroming, repainting and some modifications (brazed on shifter bosses etc.)Another trip to italy followed.




sadly, chrome and paint were of bad quality, and it didn't take german winters too well.



now it is awaiting a full restoration and i plan to rebuild it with parts matching its age.

gomango

Thanks martl, it reminded my wife of home!

What a wonderful bike and brief story. We vacationed in the area you described six summers ago, and our kids were treated like royalty!

RFC

Post of the month nomination. Excellent story and photos.

JunkYardBike

In Europe, does randonneuring generally mean what North Americans call touring? Also, in Europe, does the term 'audux' more accurately describe what we here in this thread refer to as a randonneur bike?

Monkey Face

I've been confused by all of this too, as I'm new to taking road riding 'seriously'. I might be corrected by more knowledgable members, but from what I've read over here, Audax and Randonneuring are two words for the same thing - organised long distance events (not races). Obviously, touring is different in that it's not an organised event - no set distance (or 'rules') to measure yourself against.

We also have Sportive's, which I understand to be short Audax's / Rando's - with optional distances from about 20-60 miles... I think the idea of Sportive's is to enthuse as many people as possible, of different abilities and fitness levels (and who might be daunted by an Audax / Rando), to get out on their bikes and take part. They are growing massively in popularity.

unterhausen

I like to say randonneuring is similar to touring except randonneurs aren't sensible enough to stop for the night. There are aspects of racing to it, but it's a race against time and distance, not against other riders.

Seasnarf

Martl
The continuing saga of this bike through your family is great. It seems to be imbued with its own soul.

Barrettscv 

C & V post of the year!

Road Fan

I've asked two experienced builders who are in driving distance to take on raking my fork, and received some disappointing responses. One is willing to take teh job, but because it is "what a customer wants," and seems to have no insight to offer about the best fork rake. Both are concerned about moving the bike into a zone where shimmy is likely. The other one is concerned that bending forward is more stressful than bending backwards (de-raking) and on potentially stressing the crown and the crown/blade braze. I'm not sure I fully understand why either of these concerns are necessary, but he refuses to take the job. They also both raised issues of reduced clearance and increasing head angle, but I think we all settled those issues.

I had hoped to find a builder who not only is willing to perform the bend, but based on his understanding of bikes can be supportive. I don't really want to deal with either of them, at this point.

Anyone know of a builder who has added rake to steel forks to the 60-65 mm level? I'd like to work with someone who has enough experience with doing this that he can provide a supportive response. That will be someone I can go back to with confidence.

FloridaBoy

Kogswell Cycles has some nice frames: https://www.kogswell.com/ I had the Bleriot B4 I found out about Kogswell but I have no complaints.

I have a Rivendell Bleriot and it is at the LBS because I swapped some parts to finish this Panasonic MC-7500 ca 1985. I will post pics as soon as I pick the Bleriot up. I use the Panny for general duty and fishing lakes/ponds in Big Cypress and the Everglades. The Bleriot does 'everything else'. The 650B tires on the Bleriot make it easy to ride all day and come back for more.
I was looking for a comfortable all around bike and now I have 2.

FloridaBoy

RF,

You might want to call Kogswell and discuss your fork problem. They had several rakes avilable in the past and you might be able to pick one up for a reasonable amount.

Six jours

I know for a fact that Rolland Della Santa has reraked forks for French-style builds. There's one other fellow i know of as well, but I can't come up with his name right now and don't know if he builds for other than "friends and family". I'll look it up and post when I find.

I'm not completely rejecting the job (if you absolutely can't find anyone else to do it, we can talk) but again, I'm an amateur framebuilder with homemade tools, and taking a blade much past 60 mm would be unknown territory for me. IOW, you might get back a ruined fork and a sincere note of apology.

Six jours

Oh, and I'd stay away from anyone who is worried about stressing the joinery during reraking. Done correctly, absolutely no force is applied to any joint. If he's planning on using the steerer tube as a lever, he's a fool.

redxj

I wouldn't waste your time with contacting Kogswell. Even if he would actually answer an email or the phone I bet he has nothing for stock. There hasn't been a new shipment of Kogswell P/Rs or forks in a long time. In fact Kogswell is going to now concentrate on 26" (559) wheels only. Longleaf bicycles in North Carolina is going to take over the 650B Kogswell production from now on. They had a few 1" forks a while back, but all were 650b. The 700c Kogswell forks are 1 1/8", set up for canti brakes, and have a long axle to crown measurement. The rake on those is/was 58mm. If Anthony at Longleaf is smart he will make a 1" conversion fork with 58mm or more rake with or without canti posts and if he can keep them around $100 would sell a ton of those.