For the love of English 3 speeds...
05-09-24, 09:25 PM
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Brandt was bright and also an iconoclast that did things in a very unique, deliberate, and sometimes confounding way. I read somewhere else that he got a new frame built yearly (or every other year) because he put so much abuse on his bikes, and that he always chose yellow paint because it would show cracks the easiest. Jobst would do serious "gravel"/MTB rides with high gearing and slick, narrow tires on a road bike. He would never carry water, instead he knew where water was and would stick his head into the spring or creek and drink. He also looked sideways when Tom Ritchey rolled up on a bike he had built himself, wondering if it would be up for the task. I admire folks like him, but just like I do with Jan Heine, I take their recommendations with a grain of salt.
But Brandt wasn't unique in the practice of denigrating three speeds. That was common practice amongst many American men who got serious about cycling in the 60s and 70s. This was an era when adult biking (at least in the 60s) wasn't a thing, so those who aspired to it looked at racing bikes from Europe for inspiration. Three speeds was what they'd find in department stores, hardware stores, or the basic bike shops, and admittedly a lot of the three speeds available here (that wasn't imported from the UK) were heavy and of mediocre quality. That bias got passed down through the ages, especially through the pages of bike magazines and books. Look at the bike books from that era--they might talk about three speed maintenance because they were common, but there was an air of "If you're serious about this, you'll soon leave that three speed behind and upgrade to a fine machine from Italy or maybe France." (Not Japan just yet.) And that bias is still hard to shake.
But Brandt wasn't unique in the practice of denigrating three speeds. That was common practice amongst many American men who got serious about cycling in the 60s and 70s. This was an era when adult biking (at least in the 60s) wasn't a thing, so those who aspired to it looked at racing bikes from Europe for inspiration. Three speeds was what they'd find in department stores, hardware stores, or the basic bike shops, and admittedly a lot of the three speeds available here (that wasn't imported from the UK) were heavy and of mediocre quality. That bias got passed down through the ages, especially through the pages of bike magazines and books. Look at the bike books from that era--they might talk about three speed maintenance because they were common, but there was an air of "If you're serious about this, you'll soon leave that three speed behind and upgrade to a fine machine from Italy or maybe France." (Not Japan just yet.) And that bias is still hard to shake.
But some of the fading manufacturers, like Murray and Columbia, were turning out some rather weak offerings by way of three speed bikes in that malaise time. Then there were the department store bikes like the Free Spirit, and some of the Huffy bikes that were just kind of cheap overall. I've seen a fair number of these bikes with broken frame or separated weld joints at the rear of the frame. Then many of the budget level components were cheap. I suppose if your experience with a three speed was on a 1980s Columbia where the rear dropout decided to detach itself during a ride, you'd be turned off on three speed bikes.
Still, it's unfair to lump them all together. I suppose it was sort like the snobbery that plagued the Schwinn Varsity. Perhaps the Varsity took it even worse.
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05-10-24, 10:03 AM
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Parts find of the week - an unused front hub for a Schwinn 3 speed with its original box. Neat stuff. This one is a dural hub from the late 1940s or early 1950s.
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05-10-24, 12:05 PM
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You make a good point. There was a malaise era for some of these bikes in the 1970s into the 1980s. The Raleigh products were generally good, as were the Schwinn products. Some of the Japanese and French brands also made decent 3 speed bikes, and then Schwinn was also importing Taiwanese Giant-made three speeds at the end.
But some of the fading manufacturers, like Murray and Columbia, were turning out some rather weak offerings by way of three speed bikes in that malaise time. Then there were the department store bikes like the Free Spirit, and some of the Huffy bikes that were just kind of cheap overall. I've seen a fair number of these bikes with broken frame or separated weld joints at the rear of the frame. Then many of the budget level components were cheap. I suppose if your experience with a three speed was on a 1980s Columbia where the rear dropout decided to detach itself during a ride, you'd be turned off on three speed bikes.
Still, it's unfair to lump them all together. I suppose it was sort like the snobbery that plagued the Schwinn Varsity. Perhaps the Varsity took it even worse.
But some of the fading manufacturers, like Murray and Columbia, were turning out some rather weak offerings by way of three speed bikes in that malaise time. Then there were the department store bikes like the Free Spirit, and some of the Huffy bikes that were just kind of cheap overall. I've seen a fair number of these bikes with broken frame or separated weld joints at the rear of the frame. Then many of the budget level components were cheap. I suppose if your experience with a three speed was on a 1980s Columbia where the rear dropout decided to detach itself during a ride, you'd be turned off on three speed bikes.
Still, it's unfair to lump them all together. I suppose it was sort like the snobbery that plagued the Schwinn Varsity. Perhaps the Varsity took it even worse.
As an aside, for further research: The fascinating case of Ross, who were basically a third-tier American maker in the vein of Iverson until the mid-80s, when they decided to make some nice mountain bikes that are now fairly desirable.
Anyways, it is true that there were differences in quality in the American and British three speeds during the bike boom era. But my central thesis isn't that. It's the fact that all three speeds, no matter the quality, were considered junk by a certain type of bike snob. And that thinking got passed down through the ages, which makes it hard to shake, even now. And that's a shame. Three speeds are great everyday bikes for most riders, especially those who are using their bikes for commuting or utility purposes. Compare that to the bikes those snobs considered great: Lightweight machines good for going fast and far but not as good for other uses.
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05-10-24, 12:07 PM
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05-14-24, 07:08 AM
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After the purchase of a Super Course, my Raleigh-esque stable is growing. Not all 3 speeds and technically not all mine. The 72 green Sports started it all when I rescued it from 30+ years in the dank cellar of a house we bought. I found the 67 Robin Hood Lenton Sports when I was looking for parts for the 3 speed. And I bought the 67 ish Triumph for a Triumph sports car friend who has yet to pick it up. One of these days I'll bring the Sports for a nice, relatively level bike path ride. Meanwhile, the Super Course does well for the hilly terrain in my neighborhood.
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05-14-24, 11:14 AM
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After the purchase of a Super Course, my Raleigh-esque stable is growing. Not all 3 speeds and technically not all mine. The 72 green Sports started it all when I rescued it from 30+ years in the dank cellar of a house we bought. I found the 67 Robin Hood Lenton Sports when I was looking for parts for the 3 speed. And I bought the 67 ish Triumph for a Triumph sports car friend who has yet to pick it up. One of these days I'll bring the Sports for a nice, relatively level bike path ride. Meanwhile, the Super Course does well for the hilly terrain in my neighborhood.
Raleigh produced the Robin Hood cycles, but always regarded them as part of a budget range, sold through dealers who weren't the (favoured) exclusive Raleigh outlets.
05-14-24, 01:03 PM
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Yes, the Lenton Sports is basically a rebadged Raleigh Sprite. But it's a unique bike in very nice shape. The original owner had removed the fenders so they didn't see years of youthful abuse, but he still had them.
Last edited by swampyankee2; 05-14-24 at 08:35 PM.
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05-14-24, 08:23 PM
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1947 Schwinn Continental out for a ride earlier this evening. The leaves have really filled in on the plants here over the past week or so.
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05-14-24, 09:26 PM
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Raleigh DL-1
A Raleigh DL-1 on Long Island. A bit rusty, but the price helps soften that some.
Vintage Raleigh Rod Brake - Craigslist Long Island
Vintage Raleigh Rod Brake - Craigslist Long Island
05-15-24, 07:26 AM
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A Raleigh DL-1 on Long Island. A bit rusty, but the price helps soften that some.
Vintage Raleigh Rod Brake - Craigslist Long Island
Vintage Raleigh Rod Brake - Craigslist Long Island
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05-15-24, 10:52 AM
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.
I found this in a thrift store a while ago, I didn't need it.
I'm more interested in 1970's 10 speeds, but I had to have the bell....
I found this in a thrift store a while ago, I didn't need it.
I'm more interested in 1970's 10 speeds, but I had to have the bell....
Last edited by branko_76; 05-15-24 at 11:30 AM.
05-15-24, 06:01 PM
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Sturmey-Archer bearing cage?
I've already posted this to the mechanics forum, but answers are more likely to come from this group.
I was gifted a Royal Scot (made by Raleigh?) 3-speed and it immediately became my favorite city bike. Coincidentally, like the one above. Btw, is this made by Raleigh? Sheldon Brown says it's a NYC bike shop house brand. I figured it was a Raleigh because I had a Huffy that looked 100% the same, and it had a "made by Raleigh" decal on it.
I added a bit of 90W gear oil and it started acting up. I was hearing some grinding on one ride, but it went away. Later it got a little wobbly and I had problems adjusting the bearing play. Pulling it apart today, the bearing cage is obviously trashed. Normally I would eliminate the cage, but without it the bearings fall into the hub. This is a cup design issue/feature, as far as I can tell. Are these cages available anywhere?
Here's my exploded view. Can anyone comment on the sequence. I tried to lay them out in order but quickly mixed them up. I have an online exploded view, but the parts aren't the same as mine, close, but not the same.
I was gifted a Royal Scot (made by Raleigh?) 3-speed and it immediately became my favorite city bike. Coincidentally, like the one above. Btw, is this made by Raleigh? Sheldon Brown says it's a NYC bike shop house brand. I figured it was a Raleigh because I had a Huffy that looked 100% the same, and it had a "made by Raleigh" decal on it.
I added a bit of 90W gear oil and it started acting up. I was hearing some grinding on one ride, but it went away. Later it got a little wobbly and I had problems adjusting the bearing play. Pulling it apart today, the bearing cage is obviously trashed. Normally I would eliminate the cage, but without it the bearings fall into the hub. This is a cup design issue/feature, as far as I can tell. Are these cages available anywhere?
Here's my exploded view. Can anyone comment on the sequence. I tried to lay them out in order but quickly mixed them up. I have an online exploded view, but the parts aren't the same as mine, close, but not the same.
Last edited by sunburst; 05-15-24 at 06:07 PM.
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05-15-24, 06:15 PM
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05-15-24, 06:51 PM
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I've already posted this to the mechanics forum, but answers are more likely to come from this group.
I was gifted a Royal Scot (made by Raleigh?) 3-speed and it immediately became my favorite city bike. Coincidentally, like the one above. Btw, is this made by Raleigh? Sheldon Brown says it's a NYC bike shop house brand. I figured it was a Raleigh because I had a Huffy that looked 100% the same, and it had a "made by Raleigh" decal on it.
I added a bit of 90W gear oil and it started acting up. I was hearing some grinding on one ride, but it went away. Later it got a little wobbly and I had problems adjusting the bearing play. Pulling it apart today, the bearing cage is obviously trashed. Normally I would eliminate the cage, but without it the bearings fall into the hub. This is a cup design issue/feature, as far as I can tell. Are these cages available anywhere?
Here's my exploded view. Can anyone comment on the sequence. I tried to lay them out in order but quickly mixed them up. I have an online exploded view, but the parts aren't the same as mine, close, but not the same.
I was gifted a Royal Scot (made by Raleigh?) 3-speed and it immediately became my favorite city bike. Coincidentally, like the one above. Btw, is this made by Raleigh? Sheldon Brown says it's a NYC bike shop house brand. I figured it was a Raleigh because I had a Huffy that looked 100% the same, and it had a "made by Raleigh" decal on it.
I added a bit of 90W gear oil and it started acting up. I was hearing some grinding on one ride, but it went away. Later it got a little wobbly and I had problems adjusting the bearing play. Pulling it apart today, the bearing cage is obviously trashed. Normally I would eliminate the cage, but without it the bearings fall into the hub. This is a cup design issue/feature, as far as I can tell. Are these cages available anywhere?
Here's my exploded view. Can anyone comment on the sequence. I tried to lay them out in order but quickly mixed them up. I have an online exploded view, but the parts aren't the same as mine, close, but not the same.
Are the parts shown from the drive side or the left side?
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05-15-24, 07:01 PM
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[QUOTE][A Raleigh DL-1 on Long Island. A bit rusty, but the price helps soften that some.
Vintage Raleigh Rod Brake - Craigslist Long Island
I think that may be a 26 inch wheel Dawn series bike rather than a DL-1. Neat find. Looks like a challenge for someone who likes projects./QUOTE]
It may be a Dawn and certainly it is very similar but I have one from 1952 and although it did have the rod brakes like this one and the 26 x 1 3/8 tires it also had a fully enclosed drive train. I thought that was part of the spec. Might be the later ones ditched the chain enclosure. The hub will be stamped with the year of manufacture and that would tell part of the story. I think the rim/tire size is the key, the DL1 had large diameter tires and very relaxed geometry. ( BTW I find that my Dawn steers and handles like a very modern bike. )
Vintage Raleigh Rod Brake - Craigslist Long Island
I think that may be a 26 inch wheel Dawn series bike rather than a DL-1. Neat find. Looks like a challenge for someone who likes projects./QUOTE]It may be a Dawn and certainly it is very similar but I have one from 1952 and although it did have the rod brakes like this one and the 26 x 1 3/8 tires it also had a fully enclosed drive train. I thought that was part of the spec. Might be the later ones ditched the chain enclosure. The hub will be stamped with the year of manufacture and that would tell part of the story. I think the rim/tire size is the key, the DL1 had large diameter tires and very relaxed geometry. ( BTW I find that my Dawn steers and handles like a very modern bike. )
05-15-24, 07:06 PM
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[QUOTE=Panurgist;23241250]
Whether the bike received a chain case depends on which model within the Dawn family of bikes and when it was made.
[A Raleigh DL-1 on Long Island. A bit rusty, but the price helps soften that some.
[url=https://longisland.craigslist.org/bik/d/plainview-vintage-raleigh-rod-brake/7746344540.html]Vintage Raleigh Rod Brake - Craigslist Long Island
I think that may be a 26 inch wheel Dawn series bike rather than a DL-1. Neat find. Looks like a challenge for someone who likes projects./QUOTE]
It may be a Dawn and certainly it is very similar but I have one from 1952 and although it did have the rod brakes like this one and the 26 x 1 3/8 tires it also had a fully enclosed drive train. I thought that was part of the spec. Might be the later ones ditched the chain enclosure. The hub will be stamped with the year of manufacture and that would tell part of the story. I think the rim/tire size is the key, the DL1 had large diameter tires and very relaxed geometry. ( BTW I find that my Dawn steers and handles like a very modern bike. )
[url=https://longisland.craigslist.org/bik/d/plainview-vintage-raleigh-rod-brake/7746344540.html]Vintage Raleigh Rod Brake - Craigslist Long Island
I think that may be a 26 inch wheel Dawn series bike rather than a DL-1. Neat find. Looks like a challenge for someone who likes projects./QUOTE]It may be a Dawn and certainly it is very similar but I have one from 1952 and although it did have the rod brakes like this one and the 26 x 1 3/8 tires it also had a fully enclosed drive train. I thought that was part of the spec. Might be the later ones ditched the chain enclosure. The hub will be stamped with the year of manufacture and that would tell part of the story. I think the rim/tire size is the key, the DL1 had large diameter tires and very relaxed geometry. ( BTW I find that my Dawn steers and handles like a very modern bike. )
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05-15-24, 09:12 PM
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I've already posted this to the mechanics forum, but answers are more likely to come from this group.
I was gifted a Royal Scot (made by Raleigh?) 3-speed and it immediately became my favorite city bike. Coincidentally, like the one above. Btw, is this made by Raleigh? Sheldon Brown says it's a NYC bike shop house brand. I figured it was a Raleigh because I had a Huffy that looked 100% the same, and it had a "made by Raleigh" decal on it.
I added a bit of 90W gear oil and it started acting up. I was hearing some grinding on one ride, but it went away. Later it got a little wobbly and I had problems adjusting the bearing play. Pulling it apart today, the bearing cage is obviously trashed. Normally I would eliminate the cage, but without it the bearings fall into the hub. This is a cup design issue/feature, as far as I can tell. Are these cages available anywhere?
Here's my exploded view. Can anyone comment on the sequence. I tried to lay them out in order but quickly mixed them up. I have an online exploded view, but the parts aren't the same as mine, close, but not the same.
I was gifted a Royal Scot (made by Raleigh?) 3-speed and it immediately became my favorite city bike. Coincidentally, like the one above. Btw, is this made by Raleigh? Sheldon Brown says it's a NYC bike shop house brand. I figured it was a Raleigh because I had a Huffy that looked 100% the same, and it had a "made by Raleigh" decal on it.
I added a bit of 90W gear oil and it started acting up. I was hearing some grinding on one ride, but it went away. Later it got a little wobbly and I had problems adjusting the bearing play. Pulling it apart today, the bearing cage is obviously trashed. Normally I would eliminate the cage, but without it the bearings fall into the hub. This is a cup design issue/feature, as far as I can tell. Are these cages available anywhere?
Here's my exploded view. Can anyone comment on the sequence. I tried to lay them out in order but quickly mixed them up. I have an online exploded view, but the parts aren't the same as mine, close, but not the same.
Or you could use some grease and put the balls in loose.
30 weight oil is the usual recommendation for lubrication. People have used various oils and as long as there is oil in the hub, they seem to run. 90wt may be a bit too thick though. There are some good videos on rebuilding the AW hubs.
Let us know if the hub is an AW. It will be stamped on the hub along with a date code.
05-15-24, 09:35 PM
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Raleigh 5 speed with 2 levers
hey, I have a weird question... I have a couple of Raleigh (matching pair) Sprite. They have 5 speed internal gearing hit. The girls bike has 2 levers on the top tube (well the top sloping tube).. My question, with 2 levers I would expect a 4 speed (AA,AB,BA, BB) or 6 speeds (AA, AB, AC, BA, BB, BC) but how in the world did they come up with 5 speeds????
05-16-24, 12:09 AM
Senior Member
hey, I have a weird question... I have a couple of Raleigh (matching pair) Sprite. They have 5 speed internal gearing hit. The girls bike has 2 levers on the top tube (well the top sloping tube).. My question, with 2 levers I would expect a 4 speed (AA,AB,BA, BB) or 6 speeds (AA, AB, AC, BA, BB, BC) but how in the world did they come up with 5 speeds????
05-16-24, 08:13 AM
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Sunburst said they used GEAR oil. GEAR oil viscosity is measured at a different temperature than MOTOR oil - cylinder walls typically being hotter than gearboxes.
At the same temperature, 90wt GEAR oil runs through a viscosimeter about like 30wt MOTOR oil.
Folks use all kinds of stuff to lubricate IGHs. It seems to be a game to use anything other than the manufacturer's recommendation. An IGH being gears, an argument can be made for using gear oil rather than motor oil. Tilting at windmills; it's a struggle to keep people from putting honey in the hubs. When in doubt:
Last edited by tcs; 05-16-24 at 08:45 AM.
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05-16-24, 08:42 AM
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A bit confusing, isn't it? Sunburst shows us an exploded view of a SW Mk I and then says 'my hub is different'. Wonder which hub we are actually dealing with here? No matter! That K67Z 'Ball Cage with 8 Balls' became the HSA108 in the historic renumbering and then was updated (one fewer ball?) as the HSA284. It is darn near universal in Sturmeys, among which: AW, SW Mk I, SW Mk II, AM, FW, CS-RF3, RS-RF3, S5, S5-1, S5-2, Sprinter 7, S-RF3, X-RF4, and even the X-RF8(W) all use the same caged axle bearing.
BTW, the balls are std. ¼". If one desires to stick them in with grease w/o the cage, use 10.
BTW, the balls are std. ¼". If one desires to stick them in with grease w/o the cage, use 10.
Last edited by tcs; 05-16-24 at 08:48 AM.
05-16-24, 10:52 AM
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"Weight" is a rating, not an actual numerical viscosity measurement.
Sunburst said they used GEAR oil. GEAR oil viscosity is measured at a different temperature than MOTOR oil - cylinder walls typically being hotter than gearboxes.
At the same temperature, 90wt GEAR oil runs through a viscosimeter about like 30wt MOTOR oil.
Folks use all kinds of stuff to lubricate IGHs. It seems to be a game to use anything other than the manufacturer's recommendation. An IGH being gears, an argument can be made for using gear oil rather than motor oil. Tilting at windmills; it's a struggle to keep people from putting honey in the hubs.
Sunburst said they used GEAR oil. GEAR oil viscosity is measured at a different temperature than MOTOR oil - cylinder walls typically being hotter than gearboxes.
At the same temperature, 90wt GEAR oil runs through a viscosimeter about like 30wt MOTOR oil.
Folks use all kinds of stuff to lubricate IGHs. It seems to be a game to use anything other than the manufacturer's recommendation. An IGH being gears, an argument can be made for using gear oil rather than motor oil. Tilting at windmills; it's a struggle to keep people from putting honey in the hubs.
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05-16-24, 04:28 PM
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A bit confusing, isn't it? Sunburst shows us an exploded view of a SW Mk I and then says 'my hub is different'. Wonder which hub we are actually dealing with here? No matter! That K67Z 'Ball Cage with 8 Balls' became the HSA108 in the historic renumbering and then was updated (one fewer ball?) as the HSA284. It is darn near universal in Sturmeys, among which: AW, SW Mk I, SW Mk II, AM, FW, CS-RF3, RS-RF3, S5, S5-1, S5-2, Sprinter 7, S-RF3, X-RF4, and even the X-RF8(W) all use the same caged axle beth
BTW, the balls are std. ¼". If one desires to stick them in with grease w/o the cage, use 10.
BTW, the balls are std. ¼". If one desires to stick them in with grease w/o the cage, use 10.
I am going to try 10 loose balls. I'm only seeing the HSA284 available in the EU and Australia. One would think they sold enough 3-speeds in the US to justify someone stocking parts.
Sturmey AW
Now, when it comes to gear oil, which a few have commented on, I read many(!) threads/discussions before deciding on this. I figured it has gears, why not use gear oil.
05-16-24, 05:27 PM
Palmer
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,678
Bikes: Mike Melton custom, Alex Moulton AM, Dahon Curl
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Here's a shot of the official factory 1972 exploded view:
05-16-24, 05:40 PM
Palmer
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,678
Bikes: Mike Melton custom, Alex Moulton AM, Dahon Curl
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1701 Post(s)
Liked 1,876 Times
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1,085 Posts
Likes For tcs: