Ask your small, random, track-related questions here
#3351
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When I saw that bike, I was amazed by the down tube and fork size.
The frame tube was just HUGE. So i am guessing that the frame is super stiff lol
#3352
I have seen this bike once in T.town. I never had chance to ask the owner about the bike, because he was busy preparing for the race.
When I saw that bike, I was amazed by the down tube and fork size.
The frame tube was just HUGE. So i am guessing that the frame is super stiff lol
When I saw that bike, I was amazed by the down tube and fork size.
The frame tube was just HUGE. So i am guessing that the frame is super stiff lol
#3354
Elitist
Thread Starter
+1 on silly as hell.
What we most adore about Italian design is also what we most deride them for. It's a matter of accepting that the romantic ridiculous is worth giving up any sense of practicality. May this crazy bike adorn the garage of someone who loves Ferraris and Ducatis as much as the rest of us, but is set apart by the ability and willingness to maintain those things.
What's the old joke? "In Heaven, all the engineers are German, the police are French, and the lovers are Italian, and the banks are Swiss. In Hell, the banks are French, the police are German, the lovers are Swiss, and the engineers are Italian."
TC
TC
What we most adore about Italian design is also what we most deride them for. It's a matter of accepting that the romantic ridiculous is worth giving up any sense of practicality. May this crazy bike adorn the garage of someone who loves Ferraris and Ducatis as much as the rest of us, but is set apart by the ability and willingness to maintain those things.
What's the old joke? "In Heaven, all the engineers are German, the police are French, and the lovers are Italian, and the banks are Swiss. In Hell, the banks are French, the police are German, the lovers are Swiss, and the engineers are Italian."
TC
TC
I'm pretty sure those MAATs were under a few riders from Team Wiggins at the most recent Revolution series:
It looks pretty similar, so I don't think it's some kind of prototype. Peep those ruffles on the stays and fork; it looks like it just got a white paint-job. Also note that it seems like you aren't stuck with that integrated bar set-up. Looks like a generic alloy road bar mated to a trick carbon Zipp or 3T stem or something.
It looks pretty similar, so I don't think it's some kind of prototype. Peep those ruffles on the stays and fork; it looks like it just got a white paint-job. Also note that it seems like you aren't stuck with that integrated bar set-up. Looks like a generic alloy road bar mated to a trick carbon Zipp or 3T stem or something.
Makes me wonder if they are not awesome
#3355
Elitist
Thread Starter
I was just thinking:
Bikes are really mature. Like REALLY mature.
The ground-breaking achievements are far and few between, yet bike companies make new models every year or so.
What are the latest (in the history of the bicycle) ground-breaking, life-changing, sh*t actually got a lot better for anyone who used it engineering feats of the last 50 years when it comes to track bikes?
Here's what comes to mind for me:
- Threadless stems
- Clipless pedals
- Carbon fiber bars (vibration dampening, strong as steel, light as aluminum)
- Carbon fiber wheels
- Bike computers that record speed and cadence data to be downloaded for later review.
- Lizard Skins grip tape
I think that's about it. Am I missing something?
Bikes are really mature. Like REALLY mature.
The ground-breaking achievements are far and few between, yet bike companies make new models every year or so.
What are the latest (in the history of the bicycle) ground-breaking, life-changing, sh*t actually got a lot better for anyone who used it engineering feats of the last 50 years when it comes to track bikes?
Here's what comes to mind for me:
- Threadless stems
- Clipless pedals
- Carbon fiber bars (vibration dampening, strong as steel, light as aluminum)
- Carbon fiber wheels
- Bike computers that record speed and cadence data to be downloaded for later review.
- Lizard Skins grip tape
I think that's about it. Am I missing something?
#3356
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I was just thinking:
Bikes are really mature. Like REALLY mature.
The ground-breaking achievements are far and few between, yet bike companies make new models every year or so.
What are the latest (in the history of the bicycle) ground-breaking, life-changing, sh*t actually got a lot better for anyone who used it engineering feats of the last 50 years when it comes to track bikes?
Here's what comes to mind for me:
- Threadless stems
- Clipless pedals
- Carbon fiber bars (vibration dampening, strong as steel, light as aluminum)
- Carbon fiber wheels
- Bike computers that record speed and cadence data to be downloaded for later review.
- Lizard Skins grip tape
I think that's about it. Am I missing something?
Bikes are really mature. Like REALLY mature.
The ground-breaking achievements are far and few between, yet bike companies make new models every year or so.
What are the latest (in the history of the bicycle) ground-breaking, life-changing, sh*t actually got a lot better for anyone who used it engineering feats of the last 50 years when it comes to track bikes?
Here's what comes to mind for me:
- Threadless stems
- Clipless pedals
- Carbon fiber bars (vibration dampening, strong as steel, light as aluminum)
- Carbon fiber wheels
- Bike computers that record speed and cadence data to be downloaded for later review.
- Lizard Skins grip tape
I think that's about it. Am I missing something?
Otherwise I think you're pretty much right; incremental gains. . . if that. Except for training methods (NO I'm not trying to bring that back up! ).
TC
#3357
Elitist
Thread Starter
I can't say that they are a major improvement over steel or aluminum. It's not like you get on a carbon frame and instantly become faster or had a noticeably better experience.
It's not necessarily stiffer than steel or aluminum (depending on build specs). It's not necessarily lighter.
There is some minor vibration dampening from the rear triangle. But, most of the vibration dampening happens with the fork, bars, seat stays, and saddle.
Yes, carbon allows for unique aero shapes. But, we had that a little with steel and a lot with aluminum. So, the aero improvements are relatively minor over aluminum. Put a TK1 next to a Tiemeyer and you will find that they are more similar than different when it comes to aerodynamics.
#3358
Elitist
Thread Starter
Oh, I'd like to add: Seatposts
The Thomson micro-adjust seatpost is probably the best ever.
There is an older seatpost design where the seatpost top is simply a tapered tube and the clamp grabs the tube at the bottom and it's sides grabs the saddle rails. You see this on cheaper bikes now.
This system allows for the saddle to turn sideways like a turret back and forth.
So, getting away from that system is HUGE.
The Thomson micro-adjust seatpost is probably the best ever.
There is an older seatpost design where the seatpost top is simply a tapered tube and the clamp grabs the tube at the bottom and it's sides grabs the saddle rails. You see this on cheaper bikes now.
This system allows for the saddle to turn sideways like a turret back and forth.
So, getting away from that system is HUGE.
#3359
Elitist
Thread Starter
+ Aerobars
#3360
Wind tunnels and power meters are pretty serious advancements, too, but it's not bike-specific tech. And it's about information, not about what a cyclist is using while on the bike, necessarily.
#3361
Elitist
Thread Starter
The big advancement that power meters bring are 90% from the head unit that records speed, cadence, and HR over time and allows one to download it for analysis. Think about it. If your cranks stopped transmitting for a training block (let's say a month), would you be able to make the same analyses using speed, cadence, and HR data plotted over time (as well as other charts using that data)?
I strongly believe that power analysis is a huge red herring in the cycling world. Everyone who doesn't have one feels that they would benefit from one.
Yes, there is something to be gained, but not as much as it promises.
But, your opinion is just as valid as mine.
#3362
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I feel for the guys that have to come out with a better bike every couple of years. Imagine finally pulling off the best bike you could possibly make within the limits you have, knowing that you have to beat it, while everyone is trying to as well, in a couple of years. With the same limits and technology.
At least with road bikes the groupsets get noticeably better every 5-10 years, but track frames? The Kimera is 10 years old now, could they make anything reasonably better today?
At least with road bikes the groupsets get noticeably better every 5-10 years, but track frames? The Kimera is 10 years old now, could they make anything reasonably better today?
#3363
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I'd consider those are small advancements. And especially low on the cost/benefit scale.
The big advancement that power meters bring are 90% from the head unit that records speed, cadence, and HR over time and allows one to download it for analysis. Think about it. If your cranks stopped transmitting for a training block (let's say a month), would you be able to make the same analyses using speed, cadence, and HR data plotted over time (as well as other charts using that data)?
I strongly believe that power analysis is a huge red herring in the cycling world. Everyone who doesn't have one feels that they would benefit from one.
Yes, there is something to be gained, but not as much as it promises.
But, your opinion is just as valid as mine.
The big advancement that power meters bring are 90% from the head unit that records speed, cadence, and HR over time and allows one to download it for analysis. Think about it. If your cranks stopped transmitting for a training block (let's say a month), would you be able to make the same analyses using speed, cadence, and HR data plotted over time (as well as other charts using that data)?
I strongly believe that power analysis is a huge red herring in the cycling world. Everyone who doesn't have one feels that they would benefit from one.
Yes, there is something to be gained, but not as much as it promises.
But, your opinion is just as valid as mine.
#3364
Elitist
Thread Starter
I feel for the guys that have to come out with a better bike every couple of years. Imagine finally pulling off the best bike you could possibly make within the limits you have, knowing that you have to beat it, while everyone is trying to as well, in a couple of years. With the same limits and technology.
At least with road bikes the groupsets get noticeably better every 5-10 years, but track frames? The Kimera is 10 years old now, could they make anything reasonably better today?
At least with road bikes the groupsets get noticeably better every 5-10 years, but track frames? The Kimera is 10 years old now, could they make anything reasonably better today?
I'm reminded of when I was a kid playing jr tennis. The Prince Original Graphite was an amazing racquet that debuted in 1980 and was still being used into the 1990s. It had a perfect mix of balance, power, control, and feel that was unrivaled. They got it right. This was the racquet that Agassi, Chang, Seles, etc.. and every up-and-coming junior to the pros used.
Agassi and a young Seles:
Even when pros got contracts with other manufacturers...they would STILL use the POG and simply repaint it and put the new sponsors logo on it. It was THAT good.
(It's hard to see here, but it was well known at the time. Agassi had a Donnay contract but used a Prince racquet for a year or two until they made one he liked.)
Here was the problem. It was rugged as hell, too! So guess what? If you bought 4 of them (normal for a club player) or 10 (normal for pros), you were set for life
They even use it now:
So what did Prince do? Instead of keeping it alive, they discontinued it. I'm not sure what happened in the story of that racquet after that. But, basically pros started hoarding them. Not sure if they ever re-released it.
So, yeah, imagine being the guy who had to top the best tennis racquet ever made
I probably am. I've never done it. I guess that's why I asked the question.
Last edited by carleton; 02-28-16 at 07:42 PM.
#3365
Senior Member
In regards to wind tunnels - I spent a day testing on my TT bike (I did bring my track bike but ran out of time) back in 2008. Was the best $500 I've spent on the bike... Saved 43 Watts by spending just a few hours testing.
#3366
I'd consider those are small advancements. And especially low on the cost/benefit scale.
The big advancement that power meters bring are 90% from the head unit that records speed, cadence, and HR over time and allows one to download it for analysis. Think about it. If your cranks stopped transmitting for a training block (let's say a month), would you be able to make the same analyses using speed, cadence, and HR data plotted over time (as well as other charts using that data)?
I strongly believe that power analysis is a huge red herring in the cycling world. Everyone who doesn't have one feels that they would benefit from one.
Yes, there is something to be gained, but not as much as it promises.
But, your opinion is just as valid as mine.
The big advancement that power meters bring are 90% from the head unit that records speed, cadence, and HR over time and allows one to download it for analysis. Think about it. If your cranks stopped transmitting for a training block (let's say a month), would you be able to make the same analyses using speed, cadence, and HR data plotted over time (as well as other charts using that data)?
I strongly believe that power analysis is a huge red herring in the cycling world. Everyone who doesn't have one feels that they would benefit from one.
Yes, there is something to be gained, but not as much as it promises.
But, your opinion is just as valid as mine.
Wind tunnels and aerodynamics are definitely low on the cost:benefit scale, but as everybody gets faster, the cost to achieve benefits gets higher (see GB & Sky's accumulation of marginal gains approach). And the gains can be significant. I was thinking about Evie Stevens' Hour Record. I was chatting with a few friends when the news broke, and we were eyeballing her position and thinking, damn - surely there's room for improvement there. But then one or two news articles later and Henderson is saying that, in testing, she's one of the slipperiest athletes he's ever tested. Surprise!
Agassi - good god - that mullet.
#3367
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Does anyone know anyone at Alkek, or at least some of the following info? I'm trying to figure out what I need to do to start racing there this year while I'm in Houston for work . I've done some of the winter series racing thing at Hellyer, I don't know if doing that counts as racing or not as far as Alkek is concerned.
I know this is a strange place to ask but I'm not getting much info from FB or email -
I know this is a strange place to ask but I'm not getting much info from FB or email -
#3368
Full Member
I don't think power analysis is a red herring, but I do think that people perhaps assume that it can solve problems that it can't - it also requires discipline, motivation, ongoing learning, understanding of the principles, and follow-through. As Gang Star said, "I put in work, and watch my status escalate." It's a faster route but it's not a shortcut.
I have a couple of years of heart rate, speed, and distance data, but after only seven weeks of power-based HIIT and I need to say WOW! I'd happily trade in my carbon wheels and aero helmet for the difference this has made in my training regime. The quantifiable aspect is very significant to me. I feel like I can already do a faster pursuit in the middle of Winter than I have for the past two years in the peak of Summer, but I acknowledge that only real world on-the-track testing will provide the necessary calibration data. Also, I'm only in my first year of producing this type of data, so there's plenty I need to learn. I consider my former HR based training data to be virtually useless, since I am already putting out more power at a lower heart rate in the same tests under identical conditions.
#3369
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Well the bike improvements that could truly change something are banned by the UCI : non-diamond frames (lotus,90s gt etc) and superman or obree position
#3370
Elitist
Thread Starter
It's almost like having a new lover!
Basically:
- HR shows your level of exertion from 10s ago.
- Power shows your current level of exertion.
Yes, one is better than the other. But, is getting that information 10s earlier worth $3,000?
This is why TT and Triathletes like racing non-UCI events because they aren't subject to those rules. And the bike manufacturers get to go nuts. There are enough participants in the non-UCI events to cover the costs of engineering and production. That's why the Shiv exists! It's flying in the face of the archaic UCI rules with the huge downtube that isn't 3:1 compliant...but it's hella fast!:
#3371
Elitist
Thread Starter
I don't think power analysis is a red herring, but I do think that people perhaps assume that it can solve problems that it can't - it also requires discipline, motivation, ongoing learning, understanding of the principles, and follow-through. As Gang Star said, "I put in work, and watch my status escalate." It's a faster route but it's not a shortcut.
For the top 10% elite, yes. But for the bottom 90%, no.
In order for power meters (fatigue meters, as I call them) to work, you have to:
- Put them on all of your bikes
- Calibrate them
- Record every session (including rollers, trainer)
- Upload the data into the same software
- Learn how to analyze the files
- Learn what to look for
- Learn how to adjust your training for max effect.
- Rinse. Repeat.
I honestly think that most road/track riders simply don't do all of the above. Most don't care to or want to learn how to do the complex analysis. Basically, "I got a power meter. I saved the efforts. Now what?"
Again, I'm not saying that Power Meters are useless. I'm saying that MOST riders will not benefit from them and no one got faster because they had one on their bike. The speed comes from adjusting the training program based on the data and the body having a positive response based on that adjustment. In contrast, people did get faster when they went from 32 spokes to aero carbon wheels...in the same training session
+1 for the Gangstar quote
#3372
Blast from the Past
I go back to 80's/90's HR based programs. Power is definitely more effective in the Aerobic realm. And it's just as effective as HR at polarizing training. An area where most of us need help.
FTP improvement is pretty well understood. Where I see a dearth of information is its use in helping improve maximal or sub-maximal efforts. All of the metrics and zones currently used (CTL, ATL, IF,ect) are based on aerobic milestones (FTP, CP).
I've had really good return this winter on sweet spot training for example. A pace that's hard to find with just HR. I don't think there is an analogy in max work. Effective work is a lot less paced. So power becomes just another measurement.
Would love to hear how some are using power in shorter efforts. I've read very little out there on the subject.
Apologize for the rambling reply.
FTP improvement is pretty well understood. Where I see a dearth of information is its use in helping improve maximal or sub-maximal efforts. All of the metrics and zones currently used (CTL, ATL, IF,ect) are based on aerobic milestones (FTP, CP).
I've had really good return this winter on sweet spot training for example. A pace that's hard to find with just HR. I don't think there is an analogy in max work. Effective work is a lot less paced. So power becomes just another measurement.
Would love to hear how some are using power in shorter efforts. I've read very little out there on the subject.
Apologize for the rambling reply.
#3373
Elitist
Thread Starter
This is a topic that's bigger than this thread so I've created a new thread in which some may want to follow and/or participate: https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycl...er-meters.html
#3374
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I am planning to spend my Spring break(End of March) in T.Town velodrome.
So can anyone tell me a cheap way to spend my week(7days) in velodrome?
As you guys know, I don't live near the velodrome, so I have to find a hotel.
Also are their any restaurants neer the velodrome?
When I visited the velodrome, I had hard tume finiding a restaurant neer the velodorme.
Please give me some tips.
So can anyone tell me a cheap way to spend my week(7days) in velodrome?
As you guys know, I don't live near the velodrome, so I have to find a hotel.
Also are their any restaurants neer the velodrome?
When I visited the velodrome, I had hard tume finiding a restaurant neer the velodorme.
Please give me some tips.
#3375
Elitist
Thread Starter
Make sure that it's open and you can ride it before you plan a trip around going.
Also, I'd suggest making some sort of plans for the rest of each day. A velodrome is a lot like a gym in that it's great for using it for which it is designed. After your workout, there's nothing to do.
So let's say you do a 3hr workout (counting setup and breakdown), what are you gonna do the rest of the day?
Also, I'd suggest making some sort of plans for the rest of each day. A velodrome is a lot like a gym in that it's great for using it for which it is designed. After your workout, there's nothing to do.
So let's say you do a 3hr workout (counting setup and breakdown), what are you gonna do the rest of the day?