Koyote

Especially when driving down a hill, which is the claim to which posters are responding:
​​​​​​Downshifting when driving downhill, especially if one is coming to a stop, is definitely a basic skill. Hell, it's sub-basic.

But anyway, comparing shifting bikes to shifting motor vehicles is inapt, for reasons that I already pointed out above. Part of the problem is that RH Clark seems to not understand how modern shifters even operate.

big john

Of course. I think what he was trying to say is that he can sweep through the entire cassette with one motion of a friction shifter instead of 2 or 3 with indexing.
Whether that is an advantage of some kind or whether it's worth having friction is another story.

edit, Also, once you get used to friction shifting it becomes second nature. Still, I see no reason to go back, especially on a performance type bike.

Koyote

The only time I shift a bike from one end of the cassette to the other, all at once, is in the work stand -- and even that is rare.

If you have to do that while riding, you're doing it wrong. You were either in a gear that's too tall, or you've downshifted to a gear that's too short.

3alarmer

.
...even I have to admit that seeing today's bicycles, which are primarily still chain driven machines, described as models of "precision and efficiency... and equipped with state-of-the-art components" appeals to my warped sense of humor. It's almost like there are people who don't understand that this has been bicycle advertising speak since at least the 1980's. Although it probably predates that era as well.

Five years from now, that old stuff from 2024 will again look like Fred Flintstone's car, if you are a true believer. I can hardly believe at this point I've managed to ride all the miles I've ridden on a bicycle, just enjoying the fact that it was faster than walking.

big john

I agree with you. I supposed if you were tooling along in a high gear and you had to make a sudden stop you could find yourself in a too-high gear but friction shifting wouldn't help with that.
If a situation did arise where you were still rolling and you needed to go small-big on the cassette I think it cold be managed with modern shifting just fine.

big john

I don't think anyone has said friction shifted bikes can't do what indexed bikes can do. Road bike tech is generally incremental. Some things, like integrated brake/shifters can be described as "game changing" but everyone knows it's still a bike. It doesn't matter what we ride (within reason), the guy who drops everyone on a group ride will still drop them if you put him on an older bike.

3alarmer

...let me introduce you to some of the current rhetorical flourishes in this thread. I agree with the point that this stuff is incremental. But I'm not 100% sure everyone in this thread agrees it's still a bike. And I know for a fact there's a long history here in general that holds the opinion that it maters a great deal what we ride. Not me, of course. I'm only in it for the exercise and cheap thrills.

However, if I ever get a drive shaft bike, I intend to start many threads in General cycling, pointing out that it's a quantum leap, and only cavemen still use chains.

Koyote

General Cycling seems to have been invaded by a few C&V posters who think that bicycle technology reached its zenith in the 1970s, and when it comes to newer tech (cf, disc brakes, STI levers, tubeless tires) they often vociferously post their opinions while proudly proclaiming that they've never used the newer tech and never will. (They remind me of my former mother-in-law, who stridently proclaimed that a particular TV show was stupid; I asked how many episodes she'd watched, and she replied "None! Why would I watch something that's so stupid?")

On some fb group that occasionally pops up in my feed, some posters carry on about how '60s muscle cars are the best. When someone points out that modern cars are better in pretty much every conceivable way -- acceleration, handling, safety, reliability, comfort -- they often simply refuse to believe the plain facts, or keep changing the criteria until they're talking about how newer cars don't sound as good, or something else that's subjective.

And that's the issue we see around here: some posters confuse their uninformed opinions with objective facts, and so they believe that tubeless tires (for example) are inferior because they simply don't understand how they work. Or they egotistically believe their use-cases to be universal, and so they believe that anyone who claims to benefit from other technology is mistaken. Or, like some of the muscle car fanatics, they are biased by nostalgia, and believe that bikes must have hit their peak when they themselves hit their peak -- back when they had hair, could perform in bed, and didn't have to get up to urinate five times each night.

It's sad, really.

Sierra_rider

I don't even own a vehicle with an automatic transmission, but I learned from this thread that I incorrectly pilot my manual-equipped autos. Silly me has always shifted into the correct gear for hills and downshifted when coming to a stop. From here on out, I'll try to abandon heel-toe downshifts and lurch my way to a stop, in 6th gear.

seypat

And barends were even used in racing way BITD. Thank you, for the chance to post this video. Vintage racing, french accents, beautiful scenery and surf music, great film.

https://www.nfb.ca/film/60_cycles_en/

big john

Well, some of what goes on here is just hyperbole. Anyone who has been riding for years knows the truth about this stuff. I've been a member of a road club for 35 years. People come and go and some buy new stuff yearly, some ride the same bike for years. The pecking order is not changed by purchases, generally speaking.

And shifting a bike is not rocket surgery. It's more important that you have the gearing you need than the shifting system itself. That said, I was reluctant to buy integrated shifters and give up my down tube stuff but finally did in 2001. It's better, more convenient, and probably safer. I wouldn't want to go back to DT shifting on my main bike. Sold my last bar-end friction bike in 2020, never used it anymore but it worked fine.

A guy did come to our club ride with a driveshaft bike a couple times. I don't know how well it worked but he was slow and would have been slow on an S-Works Tarmac.

big john

Yeah I don't understand the whole retro grouch thing. And I'm old a/f.

big john

Now who's posting hyperbole?

genejockey 

Nah. More like the difference between fretted and non-fretted string instruments.

genejockey 

ftfy

tomato coupe

Good video.

(The sight of all those corncobs makes my knees ache!)

Trakhak

I was going to say that indexed shifting is to player pianos as friction shifting is to accordions, but that would have just been mean.

And, for those coming up with car similes: indexed shifting equals manual transmission, electronic shifting equals automatic transmission, kind of. And maybe friction shifting equals double-clutching, although I'd have to know what double-clutching is to be confident in that one. And what about Jake brakes?

3alarmer

...who exactly are these people ? Whenever I tune in here (rarely these days), it much more resembles an overflow parking lot from the road forum. Just sayin', maybe the "invasion" is all in your head. Be happy to match the number of my own annual posts in General, versus yours if you want numbers. It's "general cycling"...not home base for "newest is more better, suck it if you are stuck on olde crap."

...it's a Facebook group. Facebook algorithms encourage engagement by controversy and tribalism. Even someone old like me, knows this.

...yet if you read any length in any of those threads, you see people saying they're just overkill for that person's particular needs and usage. Methinks thou dost protest too much, lady. Case in point:

...there is some sad in this. Both in that you feel using old stuff to ride around on is beneath you, and that you would express such sentiment repeatedly in "general cycling". Mostly the saddest part is that you lack the self awareness that allows you to write "Or they egotistically believe their use-cases to be universal.." , and miss that it might describe many of your points of argument on this topic. You must be smarter than this, but lacking self insight has long been unrelated to intelligence.

Not...............everyone..............rides............a bicycle..............for the same..............reasons..........as you. Nor is everyone rolling on two wheels, propelled by human effort, either in your lifestyle bracket, or especially interested in your Strava results. Thus we have a category of users (size undetermined), that might have differing needs. Just throwing that out there for consideration. Feel free to ignore it.

genejockey 

I like my DT, friction shifted bikes. I like my DT indexed bikes. I like my brifter bikes. For me, though, the brifter bikes are better at making me feel at one with the machine. I barely have to think about the gearing, I just change it to keep the cadence/effort where I want it.

There's one steep pitch on my Sunday route, where I'm going down a gentle downhill, usually around 20 mph, and then I have to go up a 10+% gradient. With DT shifters, I have to plan ahead - choose a gear that I can reach the top in, whereas with the brifters I can change gear 2 or 3 times - I just lighten up slightly, *click*, and keep going. With DT shifters I have occasionally misjudged that pitch and ended up at a cadence of around 20-30 for a few strokes, which I'd rather not have to do.

3alarmer

...accordion with Di2 shifting, and drive shaft propulsion.

genejockey 

Kinda feels like you're reading a lot more into that post than is there.

SurferRosa

In my Porsche and Acura(s), I often used to shift down through each gear as I came to a stop, using the transmission to lower speed and better control the car. Plus, it's fun.

SurferRosa

Actually, it was 1985.

3alarmer

...yes. This is due to prior experience on several occasions. I can't overcome prior experience on the internet. It's hard enough IRL.
A similar thing happened in general cycling last winter, when the weather was crummy and the usual suspects were bored.

It seems to be a seasonal phenomenon, but I vacated soon after the last major storm event. Soon enough to avoid the mass banning that resulted. Sounds like a good policy to repeat.

There's no way to argue for the "general" in "general cycling", without repeated accusations of retrogrouchiness. Try it for a while, if you don't believe me.

3alarmer

...first generation indexed Dura Ace. I remember it fondly.