Originally Posted by gerv

Mobius, great video! Do you have a link to the part of the presentation that provides us with Duany's proposal for what seems like in-fill development.

Originally Posted by Robert Foster

The point I am making is people didn't accidently move first into urban sprawl and then to suburbia they did it after deciding to give up on the living style they had before. Once a person has made that decision they are rarely if ever interested in a flyer by anyone suggesting they made a bad decision. Trying to change the mind of such people is like spitting in the wind.
By the community the OP is describing is often called a bed room community and was designed specifically the way it was to cater to people that simply want to get out of the city and sleep in a peaceful place before rejoining the rat race the next day. If they didn’t like the idea why would they have moved there in the first place?
So I say again if the OP can’t deal with where they live why not move?

Originally Posted by cycleobsidian

I think in many cases it's very hard to move. If you have lost a lot of money on your home, you're not exactly going to move. Furthermore, if your children are in school, moving can be very stressful for them. Your wife or husband may have a different opinion.

So actually the flyer might come in very handy to help convince a person's significant other that life could be better than the way they are living it now.

Originally Posted by cycleobsidian

On page 27, they state:

[I]"Investors tend to favor the following:

Cities and urbanizing infill suburbs with 24 hour attributes--upscale, pedestrian friendly neighborhoods, convenient office, retail, entertainment and recreation districts, good mass transit alternatives to driving, good school and relatively save streets.

Originally Posted by cycleobsidian

Thumbs up. I love your information so far.

I do believe that your description of children who live in suburbia is very accurate. They are kept in infancy as the only way they can get around is with their parent's assistance. Parents then have the ability to micromanage their lives. Right until the age of 16 or 17, young adults then have to negotiate to borrow a car or get their parents to buy them one.

I do believe as well that people don't realize what a trap they are in living under those conditions. I myself didn't give it a second thought when I lived in suburbia. Fast forward to living in a more urban area, and now I know why I used to have such conflict with my kids over going place to place; I always either had to drive them to all their athletics or after school practices when I was weary myself. When they got to the age of driving then we were always in conflict over their wanting to use the car. I much prefer city life; I think it is much less stressful.

Perhaps Robert Foster needs to find a better city to study. Not everyone has to live in a poor crime ridden area of a city. Many cities have low crime rates. (I live in one.) Many city schools are excellent. I haven't done the research on it, but I would hazard a guess that not all suburban areas have great schools.

In any case, onward and upward, MobiusX, you are on the right track.

Originally Posted by Robert Foster

Really, and what do you do with flyers stuck under your windshield or stuffed in your mailbox? I simply toss them in recycling as soon as I see they don't have any discount coupons. They even have a name for such flyers, junk mail. I would say that if anyone can't convince their SO with conversation sticking a flyer from someone they don't know more than likely is a waste of time.

Originally Posted by Smallwheels

Ever notice there are never coupons for fresh fruits or vegetables?

Even if I got a bicycle shop flyer it probably wouldn't get used unless it had no expiration date. Most of my bicycles don't need things from bicycle shops other than tubes and cables. Most parts last a really long time.

Originally Posted by Robert Foster

Really, and what do you do with flyers stuck under your windshield or stuffed in your mailbox? I simply toss them in recycling as soon as I see they don't have any discount coupons. They even have a name for such flyers, junk mail. I would say that if anyone can't convince their SO with conversation sticking a flyer from someone they don't know more than likely is a waste of time. I want to know still what experience qualifies the OP as an authority worth listening to? Where have they lived before to compare? Do you take handouts from people on the street and not toss them five feet later in the trash? Now imagine going to a bedroom community that is a bleak as the OP tries to picture it. What will they do with the flyer? Unless they have a fireplace I see it as a waste of time that could be better spent learning to cover more distance on a bike.

Besides if you moved because you wanted to buy a home or put you kids in a school what will the flyer do other than try to convince the person made a mistake? So in effect the only people reading the flyer will be people that aren't effected by the flyer. But if the OP wants to waste their time complaining about their condition they can do that. I personally am far more interested in reading something about how someone succeeds in fixing their trials rather than what their trails are keeping them from doing.

So the question remains, how did the OP get where they are and what is keeping them there? It isn't like they were walking down the road and a housing tract caught them and made them prisoner.

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike

Did the report provide any examples of US cities/suburbs where all these attributes can be found at any price; at a price affordable to anyone on this list?

Originally Posted by cycleobsidian

Mobius is trying to do his part to have people see there is an alternative to the lifestyle they are currently living, like Andreas Duany, Jan Gehl, James Kunstler. This humble beginning may eventually lead to other pursuits, that have a larger impact. Good for him for working toward making a difference with a cause that he believes in.

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike

I would read it but am on vacation for 2 weeks and the current hotel I am in does not download pdf files on the computer in its business center..

So I'll ask again does this report or you have any useful advice for persons seeking the Nirvana descibed as the "investor's" choice in the report?

I'll give you a hint, a lot of University dominated towns might fit the bill for righteous living as long as they are not too close to any major city in the U.S. So why noy just recommend that everybody sign up for a well paying University job(football coach or tenured professor would be good choices) and just pick up and move the family? Easy-peasy, eh?

Originally Posted by cycleobsidian

You are on a "Living Car-Free" forum on your vacation? Some vacation.

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike

Yes it is. Las Vegas, Grand Canyon, Bryce Canyon, And Zion National Park. Meeting my sister today who is flying in from Philadelphia, whom I haven't seen in almost 2 years. She will join my wife and me for this guided trip. I was overseas last year (not on vacation) and didn't take any vacation.

Originally Posted by Robert Foster

It seems as if regionally we simply have different definitions of suburbs. In Orange County where I grew up there is no one big city only a collection of smaller cities surrounded by homes. Most people don’t live down town but they aren’t that far from shopping because super markets are everywhere and there is at least one mall connecting every two cities. It is pretty much that way from the LA county line all the way to San Diego. Single family dwellings are the norm for most of Southern California. It seems from an Eastern perspective all of this area are suburbs. I suppose it is because of zoning but there are very few homes located in the business district unless you count industrial parks that are moved to the edge of the housing tracts. To us that is just normal living with urban areas set aside for business and some apartments and housing surrounding the town itself. The only time conditions show up duplicating the Ops situation is in brand new developments before the malls and businesses move in.
So for many of us living in the west high density living is several blocks of single family homes on 1/8th acre lots. Maybe it gets real tight if you toss in a duplex or two. But apartment complexes are zoned in areas other than where single family homes are.
The one American institution that has suffered with this community model is the family grocery store. Supermarkets and mega-markets have more or less put them out of business until you move farther out where it is almost rural. Still with the exception of resort mountain communities none of them are as desolate or far from services as the one the OP has decided to settle in.
This is just from my personal observation.

Originally Posted by Roody

Actually, the regional differences are probably not as reat as you think. Midwestern and Southeastern cities were mainly designed for the automobile and prequite sprawly--even in core areas. Detroit, for example, could fit into it the entire land area of Manhattan, Boston and San Fransisco. The metro area of Detroit (including suburbs and exurbs) is easily 50 miles in radius. But Detroit's population was only 2 million at its peak, and about 700,000 now. Most of the housing in Detroit is single family homes on 40 foot lots, and that's also true of many other cities in the Midwest.

Like you and Aaron, I love the small to medium cities. Even with sprawl, the land area is small enough to support bikes as primary transportation. My entire metro area (Lansing/East Lansing) is only 12 to 15 miles across, easy biking distance for many people. But it's large enough to support good shopping, sports, and culture--especially with a major university in the metro area.

OTOH, where would the world be without great cities like Paris, London, Damascus, Singapore, LA, and above all NYC? These cities have the critical mass of people, institutions and ideas that make civilizations great.

Originally Posted by Robert Foster

What I am trying to picture is a place like the OP is describing that would need a flyer. I also want to know what it has to do with the suburbs? I can easily bicycle to any services I need. Not as easy for my wife but it is very unlikely it would be any easier for her in LA, NY, or Paris. But my contention remains that people moved to the suburbs with eyes wide open and reap the advantages as well as the disadvantages after long thought. I believe it is totally obtuse to assume that suburbanites didn’t have a good reason to live where they do. It might not have been reason enough for true urbanites to give up living where they do but how often do you see a suburbanite concerned enough to publish a flyer to explain the drawbacks of urban living to urbanites? And that is the real point, some of us believe you made a decision to live where you live and you made that decision based on your own needs and desires. I would simply be too embarrassed to suggest that you needed a flyer to open your eyes to the benefits of suburban living because you were teleported into the central part of Detroit against your will and were unable to ride 8 miles to the library.
Yes I am using hyperbole but I simply do not believe a flyer will have any effect on someone who is not interested in being car free or even car light. And people that are car free or car light don’t need a poster or flyer to tell them that they can be car free or car light even if they live in the suburbs. I say again, the OP needs to get out there and ride more and complain less. I am still waiting to if the OP had done anything to rectify the situation they are in? Have they lived in a urban or suburban area with stores and services within easy cycling distance?

Originally Posted by Robert Foster

What I am trying to picture is a place like the OP is describing that would need a flyer. I also want to know what it has to do with the suburbs? I can easily bicycle to any services I need. Not as easy for my wife but it is very unlikely it would be any easier for her in LA, NY, or Paris. But my contention remains that people moved to the suburbs with eyes wide open and reap the advantages as well as the disadvantages after long thought. I believe it is totally obtuse to assume that suburbanites didn’t have a good reason to live where they do. It might not have been reason enough for true urbanites to give up living where they do but how often do you see a suburbanite concerned enough to publish a flyer to explain the drawbacks of urban living to urbanites? And that is the real point, some of us believe you made a decision to live where you live and you made that decision based on your own needs and desires. I would simply be too embarrassed to suggest that you needed a flyer to open your eyes to the benefits of suburban living because you were teleported into the central part of Detroit against your will and were unable to ride 8 miles to the library.
Yes I am using hyperbole but I simply do not believe a flyer will have any effect on someone who is not interested in being car free or even car light. And people that are car free or car light don’t need a poster or flyer to tell them that they can be car free or car light even if they live in the suburbs. I say again, the OP needs to get out there and ride more and complain less. I am still waiting to if the OP had done anything to rectify the situation they are in? Have they lived in a urban or suburban area with stores and services within easy cycling distance?

Originally Posted by gerv

Robert you need to get out there and ride some more yourself.

Originally Posted by Smallwheels

I read the flyer and it has some good information. Where is the call to action? Where is the solution to these problems? Does this flyer have a back page or is this the front and back page side by side?

There needs to be a list of solutions to these problems to show something can be done about it. You can either choose just one solution to focus attention or offer several and hope some stick in the minds of the readers.

If there is no new law or proposal happening in government at the time that can be supported by the people, then this flyer is a waste of time unless you have deep pockets to put them out regularly to capture the minds of the citizens. It usually takes a minimum of three views of something for it to register with people using direct mail. More often it takes seven views to make an impression.

All of us working together could come up with at least five points of change to show people something could be done to help with this problem. Not all neighborhoods are as segregated as gated island communities. Solutions would work better for some than others.

What would we do to alleviate the problems of sprawl?

1. Support zoning changes to allow mixed use businesses and housing to coexist within the same neighborhood.
2. Support zoning changes to allow housing and businesses to exist within the same building.
3. Support better mass transit, whether it is for more routes or just more trips on existing routes.
4. Support bicycle lanes and bicycle parking to alleviate parking problems.
5. Mandate all on street parking spots have 24 hour parking meters which can change the fees according to peak needs.
6. Support the creation of bridges or other crossings so pedestrians and bicyclists can cross main roads safely without having to deviate miles to reach their destinations.
7. Remove the minimum parking spaces requirement for businesses if they supply more bicycle parking spaces.
8. Give businesses greater tax credits if they give employees bus passes or cash for riding their bicycles, or carpool.
9. Repeal zoning regulations that have minimum lot sizes and minimum dwelling sizes so that smaller more affordable housing can be created everywhere.

Those are some of the things I remember being discussed on this forum and in others. What am I forgetting to put down?

I actually would love to see every other suburban neighborhood street torn up and have houses or apartments built in their place. People could use the sidewalks to get to the next main road to catch the bus or use other transportation methods. The end of the street could be used as a parking lot. It would require all the people on the street to accept the fact that they couldn't park their cars in their driveways anymore, but their neighborhoods would be quieter and more friendly. I doubt it would happen in many places unless the city gave the residents a cash payment for the change. After all, the city owns the street and the land from the sidewalk to the street. The city could also wave any restrictions on converting car garages into other uses as an additional incentive.