How much faster would I be with better wheels & tires?
#26
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2023
Location: NorCal
Posts: 815
Bikes: Santa Cruz Blur 4 TR, Canyon Endurace cf sl, Canyon Ultimate cf slx, Canyon Strive enduro, Canyon Grizl sl8
Liked 1,551 Times
in
571 Posts
From what cyclezen said, heavier wheels will mostly affect acceleration and overall weight issues, such as climbing. I guess I'm not concerned with either of those, as the engine is 30 lbs. overweight, so 2 lbs. in the wheels is insignificant for me. I'm glad too, as wheels are SO expensive!
Sierra_rider makes a good point. Tires are relatively a lot cheaper and can make a difference even for fatties like me. I'm a bit scared of going tubeless though; seems like a lot of hassle, but it would address the concern of more flats with "supple, high-performance tires." I think I'm going to try your recommendation over time. Figure out what all I need and add to a shopping list at some bike parts site somewhere, and maybe execute over the winter when I won't miss having the bike available.
Sierra_rider makes a good point. Tires are relatively a lot cheaper and can make a difference even for fatties like me. I'm a bit scared of going tubeless though; seems like a lot of hassle, but it would address the concern of more flats with "supple, high-performance tires." I think I'm going to try your recommendation over time. Figure out what all I need and add to a shopping list at some bike parts site somewhere, and maybe execute over the winter when I won't miss having the bike available.
#27
Senior Member
Likes For Bald Paul:
#28
Junior Member
So far, nobody has mentioned inner tubes. For me, I run Vittoria Rubino Pro G2's, and the biggest difference I have made on my bike lately is going to latex tubes over butyl. The ride is SO much smoother, and it feels faster (they say latex can reduce power effort by 7W at 25MPH).
#29
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,510
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Liked 4,055 Times
in
1,999 Posts
As others have said, just give the tubeless version of Conti GP5k a try. Not only do they roll faster, but going tubeless will be an additional cut to rolling resistance. I ride on some really rough roads and even occasional gravel, yet have had no flats on the GP5000 TRs.
Likes For terrymorse:
#30
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 17,035
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Liked 8,063 Times
in
4,472 Posts
Odd that you highlight the feature and ignore the obvious drawback.
Likes For mstateglfr:
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2023
Location: NorCal
Posts: 815
Bikes: Santa Cruz Blur 4 TR, Canyon Endurace cf sl, Canyon Ultimate cf slx, Canyon Strive enduro, Canyon Grizl sl8
Liked 1,551 Times
in
571 Posts
For me, rolling resistance was only a secondary reason for going tubeless, the primary reason was flat resistance.
#32
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,510
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Liked 4,055 Times
in
1,999 Posts
You're right, my oversight.
Tubeless is far superior to the tubed alternative, in every way.
Except for ease of installation, ease of maintenance, rolling resistance, weight, cost.
Tubeless is far superior to the tubed alternative, in every way.
Except for ease of installation, ease of maintenance, rolling resistance, weight, cost.
#33
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 17,035
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Liked 8,063 Times
in
4,472 Posts
I do not think tubeless is far superior in every way. I only have 1 tubeless bike and 5 tubed bikes, so your over the top outburst really missed the mark for multiple reasons.
#34
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,510
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Liked 4,055 Times
in
1,999 Posts
Odd that I see this "over the top" critique. I could do over the top, but I'm far too mellow and restrained for such behavior.
#35
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 17,035
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Liked 8,063 Times
in
4,472 Posts
You responded with sarcasm and then took an extreme opposite position from what you actually think.
Yeah, I view that as over the top.
#36
Senior Member
You will be marginally better. IMO it comes down to feel which can help you feel more comfortable going faster. A set of decent lightweight, stiff, aero wheels with some grippier slick tires will not make you better but will allow you to feel and respond better to the road.
#37
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,510
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Liked 4,055 Times
in
1,999 Posts
#38
Senior Member
the point of my post was when buying speed, position change>>>tires>wheels>>> upgrading other components to be lighter to get the most bang for your buck.
my claim about the gp5k is that they are overpriced and people are paying for the name, like cuisine art. Still fast tires.
my claim about the gp5k is that they are overpriced and people are paying for the name, like cuisine art. Still fast tires.
#39
Habitual User
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 8,624
Bikes: 2023 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2022 Trek Supercaliber, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP
Liked 8,946 Times
in
4,197 Posts
Some people like the supple ride quality of GP5000s, and appreciate the grip of the Black Chili rubber compound.. Some people can't recognize the difference.
__________________
Platypus gravelus.
Platypus gravelus.
#40
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 19,349
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Liked 13,197 Times
in
6,776 Posts
I wish I'd bought a bunch of them back when ProBikeKit had them for $40 each.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
Likes For genejockey:
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,496
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Liked 8,298 Times
in
3,298 Posts
#42
Perceptual Dullard
Likes For RChung:
#43
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 17,035
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Liked 8,063 Times
in
4,472 Posts
the point of my post was when buying speed, position change>>>tires>wheels>>> upgrading other components to be lighter to get the most bang for your buck.
my claim about the gp5k is that they are overpriced and people are paying for the name, like cuisine art. Still fast tires.
my claim about the gp5k is that they are overpriced and people are paying for the name, like cuisine art. Still fast tires.
Is it art that is made using food?
Is it art that is images/sculptures of food?
Is it art that is the presentation of food?
You still haven't said what tires are better for a cheaper price. And you also haven't said what price gp5k tires would have to be at to not be overpriced.
Lay some of your expertise out so the rest of us can admire it.
#44
Senior Member
what is cuisine art and in what world is it in demand to the point of being overpriced?
Is it art that is made using food?
Is it art that is images/sculptures of food?
Is it art that is the presentation of food?
You still haven't said what tires are better for a cheaper price. And you also haven't said what price gp5k tires would have to be at to not be overpriced.
Lay some of your expertise out so the rest of us can admire it.
Is it art that is made using food?
Is it art that is images/sculptures of food?
Is it art that is the presentation of food?
You still haven't said what tires are better for a cheaper price. And you also haven't said what price gp5k tires would have to be at to not be overpriced.
Lay some of your expertise out so the rest of us can admire it.
#45
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 17,035
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Liked 8,063 Times
in
4,472 Posts
#46
Some tyres do require sealant to seal the sidewalls if they are porous, but a lot don’t. When I’m being lazy (often after a winter break) I will often ride my bikes with dried out sealant and they work just fine. Obviously you lose the flat protection, which is the primary advantage of adding sealant. The only reason why sealant is not so popular in tubed tyres is because it is much less effective at sealing a blown out thin tube vs a punctured tyre.
Sealant only really gets potentially messy if you are forced into fitting a tube at the roadside, which I have never had to do with any tubeless setup in 20 years.
#47
Dependz...
I just bought a TREK Emonda SL5 - should be a slightly better wheelset, but prolly is the same... My immediate thoughts on the test ride - The wheels have GOT TO GO ! Heavy, lethargic, stiff tires,
typical compromise when a manufacturer wants to save costs - they roll... done... I bought the bike, fully expecting to immediately buy new wheels w/Good tires...
so back to your Qs...
Aero - as speeds increase, aero is very (most) important for any increases - except maybe when climbing at slow speeds... At 15-17 mph you're just entering that velocity where aero is the major factor. And the #1 thing in aero is the Human...
https://www.aero-coach.co.uk/uci-roa...%20improvement.
ok - now to wheels/tires...
Good, light wheels and good tires can make a very discernible difference in your ride experience (and that includes speed).
Aside from air resistance - Aero, there is rolling resistance, and gravity... Rolling resistance can be very discernible, although it might be a 'small' difference, the additive, cummulative effect over the period of a 'ride' can be very measurable. AND rolling resistance also adds to one other very important thing... loss of momentum ...
Loss of momentum is ALWAYS there, even on wonderfully flat and perfect roads... so over that period of loss, for a rider to maintain a certain speed/velocity, they will need to make up for Loss of momentum - which means 'acceleration', constant acceleration ! Now there is always controversy about accelerating a 'heavy wheel' vs 'lighter'. On a perfect road the heavy wheel may hold momentum, but on any surface where momentum loss becomes greater, a 'heavy' wheel requires more power to accelerate. The 'Heavy' is usually mostly in the outer parts of the wheel - Wheel rim & tire/tube, and also dependent on spoke count and weight... So Greater constant need for power than a 'lighter wheelset/tire/tube combo'...
This is amplified by another major factor - Gravity. The more slope you climb, the greater the effect of gravity and reduction of momentum... It gets quickly to where every pedal stroke is obvious acceleration... Lighter Wheels go up a slope, faster..., even what we call 'false flats'.
Your/My Bontrager Wheels are Very Heavy ! - I just weighed my set of Wheels - with tires and brake rotors, the wheelset weighs 8 lbs !!!! That's 37% of the total weigh of my bike, prolly very close to yours also. That's a lot.
A good wheelset can lower that wheelset total weight by 2 lbs.... a very discernible difference, riding...
Wheels can be pricey.
But good tires & light tubes, also a bit pricey at times, are a good way to start reducing that weight and at the same time get a much better ride quality...
Ride On
Yuri
I just bought a TREK Emonda SL5 - should be a slightly better wheelset, but prolly is the same... My immediate thoughts on the test ride - The wheels have GOT TO GO ! Heavy, lethargic, stiff tires,
typical compromise when a manufacturer wants to save costs - they roll... done... I bought the bike, fully expecting to immediately buy new wheels w/Good tires...
so back to your Qs...
Aero - as speeds increase, aero is very (most) important for any increases - except maybe when climbing at slow speeds... At 15-17 mph you're just entering that velocity where aero is the major factor. And the #1 thing in aero is the Human...
https://www.aero-coach.co.uk/uci-roa...%20improvement.
ok - now to wheels/tires...
Good, light wheels and good tires can make a very discernible difference in your ride experience (and that includes speed).
Aside from air resistance - Aero, there is rolling resistance, and gravity... Rolling resistance can be very discernible, although it might be a 'small' difference, the additive, cummulative effect over the period of a 'ride' can be very measurable. AND rolling resistance also adds to one other very important thing... loss of momentum ...
Loss of momentum is ALWAYS there, even on wonderfully flat and perfect roads... so over that period of loss, for a rider to maintain a certain speed/velocity, they will need to make up for Loss of momentum - which means 'acceleration', constant acceleration ! Now there is always controversy about accelerating a 'heavy wheel' vs 'lighter'. On a perfect road the heavy wheel may hold momentum, but on any surface where momentum loss becomes greater, a 'heavy' wheel requires more power to accelerate. The 'Heavy' is usually mostly in the outer parts of the wheel - Wheel rim & tire/tube, and also dependent on spoke count and weight... So Greater constant need for power than a 'lighter wheelset/tire/tube combo'...
This is amplified by another major factor - Gravity. The more slope you climb, the greater the effect of gravity and reduction of momentum... It gets quickly to where every pedal stroke is obvious acceleration... Lighter Wheels go up a slope, faster..., even what we call 'false flats'.
Your/My Bontrager Wheels are Very Heavy ! - I just weighed my set of Wheels - with tires and brake rotors, the wheelset weighs 8 lbs !!!! That's 37% of the total weigh of my bike, prolly very close to yours also. That's a lot.
A good wheelset can lower that wheelset total weight by 2 lbs.... a very discernible difference, riding...
Wheels can be pricey.
But good tires & light tubes, also a bit pricey at times, are a good way to start reducing that weight and at the same time get a much better ride quality...
Ride On
Yuri
Momentum favours the heavier wheel set on any surface. It is only a disadvantage when you are actively braking to lose speed and then need to accelerate back up to speed. If you are pedalling along and trying to maintain speed then a heavier wheel set will actually make this easier on any surface, rough or smooth.
Wheel weight might well be a significant percentage of your bike weight, but once you add in rider weight it is much less dramatic. 8 lbs of wheels/tyres is less than 5% of total rider/bike weight, even for a lightweight climber.
Lighter wheels subjectively “feel” nicer and maybe that’s enough to justify them. I certainly don’t have heavy wheels on my bikes. But I’m always mindful of the objective performance reality. It’s just not that significant unless you are competing in a mountain TT where a few seconds might be important.
Likes For PeteHski:
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Northern NY...Brownville
Posts: 2,657
Bikes: Specialized Aethos, Specialized Diverge Comp E5
Liked 512 Times
in
308 Posts
Marginal, very marginal, at best considering the speed you state.
Perhaps better tires would give a bit less rolling resistance thus a tiny gain in speed.
You'd likely get the largest speed increase/improvement by your position on the bike but again at the speeds you state it is marginal at best.
Want to go faster...train for it
Perhaps better tires would give a bit less rolling resistance thus a tiny gain in speed.
You'd likely get the largest speed increase/improvement by your position on the bike but again at the speeds you state it is marginal at best.
Want to go faster...train for it
Likes For Kai Winters:
#49
Habitual User
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 8,624
Bikes: 2023 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2022 Trek Supercaliber, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP
Liked 8,946 Times
in
4,197 Posts
Likes For Eric F:
#50
OM boy
A heavier wheel does take more effort to accelerate, but it’s a lot less than you are probably thinking. SwissSide did some modelling of crits, flat and mountain TTs and found that wheel weight was only significant for climbing times. The small difference in acceleration time on the crit course was completely dwarfed by the aero gains (orders of magnitude higher). This was with a 400g heavier aero wheel set.
Momentum favours the heavier wheel set on any surface. It is only a disadvantage when you are actively braking to lose speed and then need to accelerate back up to speed. If you are pedalling along and trying to maintain speed then a heavier wheel set will actually make this easier on any surface, rough or smooth.
Wheel weight might well be a significant percentage of your bike weight, but once you add in rider weight it is much less dramatic. 8 lbs of wheels/tyres is less than 5% of total rider/bike weight, even for a lightweight climber.
Lighter wheels subjectively “feel” nicer and maybe that’s enough to justify them. I certainly don’t have heavy wheels on my bikes. But I’m always mindful of the objective performance reality. It’s just not that significant unless you are competing in a mountain TT where a few seconds might be important.
Momentum favours the heavier wheel set on any surface. It is only a disadvantage when you are actively braking to lose speed and then need to accelerate back up to speed. If you are pedalling along and trying to maintain speed then a heavier wheel set will actually make this easier on any surface, rough or smooth.
Wheel weight might well be a significant percentage of your bike weight, but once you add in rider weight it is much less dramatic. 8 lbs of wheels/tyres is less than 5% of total rider/bike weight, even for a lightweight climber.
Lighter wheels subjectively “feel” nicer and maybe that’s enough to justify them. I certainly don’t have heavy wheels on my bikes. But I’m always mindful of the objective performance reality. It’s just not that significant unless you are competing in a mountain TT where a few seconds might be important.
Aero is certainly king for much of what we're talking about - and for that the human and 'position' is by far the biggest thing. So lets set aero aside as a 'given'.
I did watch that video again and same conclusions.... Their 'real world' study is not there. as They noted , they did a lot of 'simulation', not actual measurement - from a group focused on their business, Aero Stuff. I'm all about and for science, but there is well substantiated science, and some which is not that. Let's see how the data was gathered and what it is...
The Crit (as with most Brit based stuff) is on an enclosed course, no real corners - we could talk about many, maybe most real Crits, which have constant, sharp deccel & accel out of sharp corners... ****** road surfaces with drains, potholes, many possible traps...
Flywheel effect - certainly true, but so is energy loss.
Flywheel effect fades rapidly for your average rider who rides a rolling course which longer rollers which might be 4-5% grades - very common around here... In a group, you're off the back. Alone you're 10 ish seconds slower , especially at the crest, and so slower resuming a faster pace. All Additive...
Climbing longer uphillls, well I think most everyone will climb better with lighter gear... I don't know anyone in some hundreds of riders (prollu more like thousands) who has contradicted that in their approach - and certainly is true even in the higher rungs of today's sport - with adapting for the conditions.
I've done my own 'studies', and lighter comes out always faster - in some significant way.
So, why are riders spending up over $10K these days for the lightest bikes available? Certainly the aero advantages of the thousands less cost bikes are equal...
My suggestion, let each rider do their own comparison - if you have an older machine (of most any age older) and recently bought a newer machine/bike. Do some equal comparison...
decide for yourself...
Yeah, of course, the argument can be better/more choice in 'gearing', 'comfort' (maybe...).etc. But 'faster' is 'faster'... So New Bike or Old Bike - faster?
In my case
A very equal time trial of 10 miles on a light rolling course with no marked stops, equal enviromental conditions & apparent wind, aero hoods position, same kit. 3 bikes. 2009 Spec tarmac 56cm 17.6 lbs, 2023 Trek Emonda 56 cm 21.5 lbs, 1984 Colnago Master, 58cm 21.5 lbs The Tarmac by far the fastest by 26 sec. Emonda was the slowest 42 sec. behind the Tarmac. the Colnago was 26 sec behind the Tarmac (and the least aero by both position and tech). My 2014 Tarmac is always 'faster' than the 2009 (more aero and efficient), but the 2009 tarmac is my weekday ride...
Aero matters, Wheels matter, Weight matters... and, of course, the motor, most of all.
Just my view from almost 40 years of very strong involvement in competitive cycling...
Ride On
Yuri