Downhill technique: Flairing one's knee
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Most road bike turns don't require the same control as turning on dirt, snow, or other slippery surfaces but if you practice the outside foot down thing it will become instinctual and if you do slide your road bike it may help you recover it. I know it has helped me.
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Wait. When I FLARE my knee is it safer to descend in the drops or on the hoods?
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Counter steering is not actually how you steer, but how you initiate a turn. (Once you're turning, you no longer counter steer.) It is very effective, but it isn't the only way to initiate a turn. At low speeds, of course, you just turn the handlebars in the direction you want to go. At high speeds, counter steering has the disadvantage of being rather slow, because it relies on gravity to to get the bike leaning. If you watch good descenders on fast technical descents, they don't counter steer -- they simply force the bike over to initiate a turn -- because it's a much quicker technique.
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Counter steering is not actually how you steer, but how you initiate a turn. (Once you're turning, you no longer counter steer.) It is very effective, but it isn't the only way to initiate a turn. At low speeds, of course, you just turn the handlebars in the direction you want to go. At high speeds, counter steering has the disadvantage of being rather slow, because it relies on gravity to to get the bike leaning. If you watch good descenders on fast technical descents, they don't counter steer -- they simply force the bike over to initiate a turn -- because it's a much quicker technique.
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Counter steering is not actually how you steer, but how you initiate a turn. (Once you're turning, you no longer counter steer.) It is very effective, but it isn't the only way to initiate a turn. At low speeds, of course, you just turn the handlebars in the direction you want to go. At high speeds, counter steering has the disadvantage of being rather slow, because it relies on gravity to to get the bike leaning. If you watch good descenders on fast technical descents, they don't counter steer -- they simply force the bike over to initiate a turn -- because it's a much quicker technique.
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Push down on the bars on the side you're turning to.
Yes, but the bars are normally still turned in the direction you're turning -- you just tweak the angle a little bit. You rarely turn them so much that they are "counter" to the direction you are turning. (Other than when you initiate the turn, of course.)
Yes, but the bars are normally still turned in the direction you're turning -- you just tweak the angle a little bit. You rarely turn them so much that they are "counter" to the direction you are turning. (Other than when you initiate the turn, of course.)
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Motorcylists are typically accelerating through a curve and flare the knee to counter the centrifugal forces trying to force the bike upright. I can't imagine that being necessary on a bicycle but I'm not a racer or someone that tries to turn at the highest possible speed.
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Push down on the bars on the side you're turning to.
Yes, but the bars are normally still turned in the direction you're turning -- you just tweak the angle a little bit. You rarely turn them so much that they are "counter" to the direction you are turning. (Other than when you initiate the turn, of course.)
Yes, but the bars are normally still turned in the direction you're turning -- you just tweak the angle a little bit. You rarely turn them so much that they are "counter" to the direction you are turning. (Other than when you initiate the turn, of course.)
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I never consciously push down my bars to countersteer. I enter the curve (turn) at a proper speed, look at where I wanna go, and the bike magically leans and I got to that direction. I practice my handling and get faster after each try until my next crash and then start over from there again. Not sure flaring knees help you. I watch good descenders like Nibali, Sagan, and Froome and see what they do. There's also a good Cancellara vid on youtube from 2005(?) TdF. Sometimes they stick out their knees sometimes they don't. I guess knowing the descent is also important. There's a fast downhill to where I live. I used to stick out my knee until the day I didn't and took the curve just as fine. But I have to say, it looks pro if you do it in style.
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That's a bit of semantics. I would not call it counter steering of the bars remain turned to the right during a right hand turn. I would only call it counter steering if the bars actually were turned to the left during a right turn.
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Motorcyclists flare the knee, as has already been revealed, to gauge the angle of lean. Pros do it for a variety of reasons, maybe in this order:
It's a windbrake. Obviously this is only done while coasting, so it prevents the bike from continuing to accelerate in the corner and without using the brakes.
It moves the CG to the inside, which reduces the bike's angle of lean slightly, which may or may not improve adhesion, depending on a whole host of things.
It emphasizes weight transfer to the outside pedal.
Be that as it may, your fast descending respondent here doesn't do it because I don't descend in a group. I make sure other riders are well behind me and thus don't affect my riding during a descent, either that or I let the crazies go and stay about 30' back. I don't get paid. This is all because I corner like a motor racer - I try to come in slow and out fast, thus accelerating out of the corner and immediately passing the knees out rider on my inside. Or not. But that's the idea. Coming in slow also helps to prevent unseemly things such as not falling while changing line due to a rock or hole in the road.
Besides the knee thing, I also rotate my body slightly on the saddle so that my inside hip and shoulder are very slightly ahead, This helps me press my inside knee against my top tube, all of which also reduces lean angle very slightly and stabilizes the frame in the corner. It probably also countersteers a bit.
But do whatever makes you more comfortable.
It's a windbrake. Obviously this is only done while coasting, so it prevents the bike from continuing to accelerate in the corner and without using the brakes.
It moves the CG to the inside, which reduces the bike's angle of lean slightly, which may or may not improve adhesion, depending on a whole host of things.
It emphasizes weight transfer to the outside pedal.
Be that as it may, your fast descending respondent here doesn't do it because I don't descend in a group. I make sure other riders are well behind me and thus don't affect my riding during a descent, either that or I let the crazies go and stay about 30' back. I don't get paid. This is all because I corner like a motor racer - I try to come in slow and out fast, thus accelerating out of the corner and immediately passing the knees out rider on my inside. Or not. But that's the idea. Coming in slow also helps to prevent unseemly things such as not falling while changing line due to a rock or hole in the road.
Besides the knee thing, I also rotate my body slightly on the saddle so that my inside hip and shoulder are very slightly ahead, This helps me press my inside knee against my top tube, all of which also reduces lean angle very slightly and stabilizes the frame in the corner. It probably also countersteers a bit.
But do whatever makes you more comfortable.
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*I think at high speeds you are usually moving the bars beyond the straight-ahead alignment to increase lean, but at slow speeds you might not. This is much easier to analyze on a motorcycle where you can explore this physics for hours on a winding road or a track.
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If you have Di2 you don't have to counter steer.
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#47
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Lots of misinformation above. Countersteering is turning the bars in the opposite direction of the turn. Notice that I said push on the right side to turn right. That means that the fork rotates counterclockwise to turn right. Also countersteering does NOT just initiate a turn. If you quit countersteering, the bike will straighten up and quit turning. Anyone who rides a motorcycle should know that.
The bike magically goes where you want it to? That approach will get you into trouble. One of the most common motorcycle accidents is coming into a right hand curve and either due to too much speed or too little countersteering, going over the centerline into oncoming traffic. Often the rider panics and quits countersteering, causing the wreck. The other solution is to slow down quickly, to tighten the turn.
The average cyclist never has to negotiate many tight corners at high speed, like those who ride in the mountains.
The bike magically goes where you want it to? That approach will get you into trouble. One of the most common motorcycle accidents is coming into a right hand curve and either due to too much speed or too little countersteering, going over the centerline into oncoming traffic. Often the rider panics and quits countersteering, causing the wreck. The other solution is to slow down quickly, to tighten the turn.
The average cyclist never has to negotiate many tight corners at high speed, like those who ride in the mountains.
Last edited by DaveSSS; 03-10-20 at 03:11 PM.
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Lots of misinformation above. Countersteering is turning the bars in the opposite direction of the turn. Notice that I said push on the right side to turn right. That means that the fork rotates counterclockwise to turn right. Also countersteering does NOT just initiate a turn. If you quit countersteering, the bike will straighten up an quit turning. Anyone who rides a motorcycle should know that.
The bike magically goes where you want it to? That approach will get you into trouble. One of the most common motorcycle accidents is coming into a right hand curve and either due to too much speed or too little countersteering, going over the centerline into oncoming traffic. Often the rider panics and quits countersteering, causing the wreck. The other solution is to slow down quickly, to tighten the turn.
The average cyclist never has to negotiate many tight corners at high speed, like those who ride in the mountains.
The bike magically goes where you want it to? That approach will get you into trouble. One of the most common motorcycle accidents is coming into a right hand curve and either due to too much speed or too little countersteering, going over the centerline into oncoming traffic. Often the rider panics and quits countersteering, causing the wreck. The other solution is to slow down quickly, to tighten the turn.
The average cyclist never has to negotiate many tight corners at high speed, like those who ride in the mountains.
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I should add that there is a time when you actually do turn the bars in the same direction as you want to go - at very low speeds, probably under 10 mph. Countersteering is not used at very low speeds. At higher speeds, the bars must be turned in the opposite direction, or you won't go where you intend. I once rode my regular 10 mile winding mountain descent with my hands in the hooks, but using an open hand so, all that could be done was to push on the bars. Push on the right to turn right and let up a little if the turn is too tight. Push on the left to turn left and let up a little if turning too tight. With hooked road bars, pushing down should cause countersteering, but down is not the real intent.
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