Beginner Commuting In a Big City
#51
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If you want to learn how to ride in traffic then go watch the movie "Premium Rush"...Mad riding skillz, I swear it made me into a better rider
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Ok, you talking about costly mistakes which can lead to accidents and cost the cyclist their life ??.... Well then, I believe that bicycle commuting is more about using common sense then about taking orders from "cycling experts"...A cyclist needs to do whatever it takes to survive and get safely from point A to point B. If somebody feels it's safer to run a red light or a stop sign then break the law and do it. A cyclists can't follow riding styles or rules set by other cyclists.
#54
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Yeah...I know what the Idaho Stop is, and it's not the same as "always run the light and traffic signal." It allows a cyclist to treat a stop sign as a yield sign, and a red light as a stop sign (and even then, it's only fully legal in Idaho, and partially so in a few other places). As far as I can tell, it's about allowing cyclists a greater degree of leeway - especially along more lightly-trafficked routes - to allow for more efficiency and conservation of momentum. I'm afraid I honestly don't know how it's supposed to make anything safer for anyone, though, when the result of running red lights and such is invariably to make a cylist less predictable to motorists (not to mention more infuriating). The best things for safety on the road are a carefully chosen route, good visibility, and predictable riding behavior. In any case, however, to make a sweeping generalization to a newbie bike commuter that the safest thing to do is to "always run the light and traffic signal" is irresponsible at best, so I'm going to hope that it was merely a case of poor wording.
Meanwhile, what's up with all this morbid talk about "make it home alive" and "do anything to survive?" What kinds of hellish warzones are you people riding through to breed such fear and paranoia? How did a thread started to offer advice to a new commuter turn into a group rant about how cyclists are fragile little critters who must dart and dodge to avoid being trampled by blindly rampaging dinosaurs (a very poor analogy, by the way)? Whence came this bizarre "wisdom" going around which states that one should ignore both traffic laws and any instructors or experts one may encounter in favor of "trial-and-error?" I mean, I fully realize and respect the fact that there will always be an element of risk inherent to cycling, but cripes...what an insufferably obstinate bunch of pessimists we have around here...
Meanwhile, what's up with all this morbid talk about "make it home alive" and "do anything to survive?" What kinds of hellish warzones are you people riding through to breed such fear and paranoia? How did a thread started to offer advice to a new commuter turn into a group rant about how cyclists are fragile little critters who must dart and dodge to avoid being trampled by blindly rampaging dinosaurs (a very poor analogy, by the way)? Whence came this bizarre "wisdom" going around which states that one should ignore both traffic laws and any instructors or experts one may encounter in favor of "trial-and-error?" I mean, I fully realize and respect the fact that there will always be an element of risk inherent to cycling, but cripes...what an insufferably obstinate bunch of pessimists we have around here...
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… IMO, just as when the behemoth dinosaurs were co-existing with little furry mammals, they may have been not necessarily predators and prey, but I’m sure a survival strategy for the mammals was to stay away from the dinos just to avoid getting trampled. So too, my survival sense tells me, don’t congregate with cars when they jam up at intersections; and look who won out by following the Law of Survival.
Fortunately my rides are at early hours on lightly-traveled residential, light commercial and exurban roads, and anyways, Boston drivers are notorious for their own “trangressions.”
Fortunately my rides are at early hours on lightly-traveled residential, light commercial and exurban roads, and anyways, Boston drivers are notorious for their own “trangressions.”
…Meanwhile, what's up with all this morbid talk about "make it home alive" and "do anything to survive?" What kinds of hellish warzones are you people riding through to breed such fear and paranoia? How did a thread started to offer advice to a new commuter turn into a group rant about how cyclists are fragile little critters who must dart and dodge to avoid being trampled by blindly rampaging dinosaurs (a very poor analogy, by the way) ? …
I mean, I fully realize and respect the fact that there will always be an element of risk inherent to cycling, but cripes...what an insufferably obstinate bunch of pessimists we have around here...
I mean, I fully realize and respect the fact that there will always be an element of risk inherent to cycling, but cripes...what an insufferably obstinate bunch of pessimists we have around here...
Personally I suffered from the risk inherent to cycling when hit from behind while riding well-lit and far to the right myself on a wide, well-illuminated, low volume, low speed, residential suburban road. But don’t cry for me, Argentina; the Force to Ride is strong within me.
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 03-03-15 at 05:03 AM.
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In any case, however, to make a sweeping generalization to a newbie bike commuter that the safest thing to do is to "always run the light and traffic signal" is irresponsible at best, so I'm going to hope that it was merely a case of poor wording.
[SKIP]
Whence came this bizarre "wisdom" going around which states that one should ignore both traffic laws and any instructors or experts one may encounter in favor of "trial-and-error?" I mean, I fully realize and respect the fact that there will always be an element of risk inherent to cycling, but cripes...what an insufferably obstinate bunch of pessimists we have around here...
[SKIP]
Whence came this bizarre "wisdom" going around which states that one should ignore both traffic laws and any instructors or experts one may encounter in favor of "trial-and-error?" I mean, I fully realize and respect the fact that there will always be an element of risk inherent to cycling, but cripes...what an insufferably obstinate bunch of pessimists we have around here...
The "wisdom" is that the advice/guidance and "rules" offered by self appointed BF experts and so called "instructors" should be taken with a grain of salts and NOT as gospel applicable for every cycling environment and traffic situation.
And speaking of paranoia and bizarre wisdom, do you think cyclists should seek guidance from "Instructors" or "Experts" that still quote from the Good Book of John Forester?
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And you know how to selectively quote too!
The bit you left off: "If the coast is clear it's"
It's not only safer...it's politer.
The bit you left off: "If the coast is clear it's"
I'm afraid I honestly don't know how it's supposed to make anything safer for anyone, though, when the result of running red lights and such is invariably to make a cylist less predictable to motorists (not to mention more infuriating).
Last edited by spare_wheel; 03-03-15 at 08:56 AM.
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Originally Posted by Lanovran
I'm afraid I honestly don't know how it's supposed to make anything safer for anyone, though, when the result of running red lights and such is invariably to make a cylist less predictable to motorists (not to mention more infuriating).
Based on five years of daily bike commuting in Philadelphia in the 70's and yearly visits to the area since, a bicyclist who stops and waits at intersections clear of opposing traffic will be the "unpredictable cyclist" since nobody expects such behavior.
Also, I seldom, if ever, have come across any indication of drivers in the real world "infuriated" by cyclist (or motorist) behavior at intersections unless it was behavior that caused drivers to unnecessarily slow down.
On the other hand, in the world of BF A&S and Commuting, wild-eyed drivers going berserk at the sight of a cyclist appears quite common.
I'm afraid I honestly don't know how it's supposed to make anything safer for anyone, though, when the result of running red lights and such is invariably to make a cylist less predictable to motorists (not to mention more infuriating).
Based on five years of daily bike commuting in Philadelphia in the 70's and yearly visits to the area since, a bicyclist who stops and waits at intersections clear of opposing traffic will be the "unpredictable cyclist" since nobody expects such behavior.
Also, I seldom, if ever, have come across any indication of drivers in the real world "infuriated" by cyclist (or motorist) behavior at intersections unless it was behavior that caused drivers to unnecessarily slow down.
On the other hand, in the world of BF A&S and Commuting, wild-eyed drivers going berserk at the sight of a cyclist appears quite common.
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Frankly, I have posted that I would not be inclined to encourage, unless by example (nor discourage) someone to cycle-commute, but if they so chose, I would freely and gladly give any advice. Regarding spare_wheel’s admonition, I had posted to this thread on the A&S Forum, ” Remind Me Why I Should Care What Motorists Think...”
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Frankly [given the state of current Road transportation], I have posted that I would not be inclined to encourage, unless by example (nor discourage) someone to cycle-commute, but if they so chose, I would freely and gladly give any advice…
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 03-03-15 at 11:01 AM.
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Thanks for your comments, wphamilton, and I respect and enjoy your current and previous posts. If you think my post was misguided, take a look at this morning’s scrivenings to this thread on the A&S Forum, ” How can we get more people riding their bikes?”…ballistic
Actually in practice I tend to follow your script: I'll say to someone if you're tolerant of the risk it's worthwhile. It's not very persuasive in getting more people on bikes, but seeing me out there every day in all weather is a more effective advocacy. I think. And you are making that "statement" as much as I, or more. Either way the goal of more cyclists is laudable, nothing to feel hesitant about.
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Nice argument you guys are having.
I can get one of these for half the price. Thoughts?
Halfords | Carrera Virtuoso Road Bike 2015
I can get one of these for half the price. Thoughts?
Halfords | Carrera Virtuoso Road Bike 2015
That bike is probably fine, and it costs about the same as a single car payment. As a few of us said before, the best way to figure this stuff out is to try it and see for yourself what you're lacking or what feels like too much to carry. Beyond lights, a pump, and a patch kit, the rest is really up to you.
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#63
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I suppose we're just going to have to disagree on that count. What I personally consider safer and more polite towards my fellow road users is to accept the notion that we're all bound by the same set of rules, and following those rules makes it easier to interact with one another on the road. Do people often break those rules? Yes, and it's important to stay alert to that, but I see no reason why I should be the one setting the bad example. The number one complaint that I hear about cyclists from non-cyclists is about how "arrogant" and "dangerous" we are for so frequently running red lights and stop signs. Meanwhile, I'm hoping to counter that stereotype until the laws, infrastructure, and/or society's acceptance of bicycling change to the point where it's no longer an issue.
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… What I personally consider safer and more polite towards my fellow road users is to accept the notion that we're all bound by the same set of rules, and following those rules makes it easier to interact with one another on the road.…The number one complaint that I hear about cyclists from non-cyclists is about how "arrogant" and "dangerous" we are for so frequently running red lights and stop signs. Meanwhile, I'm hoping to counter that stereotype until the laws, infrastructure, and/or society's acceptance of bicycling change to the point where it's no longer an issue.
… Running a red light gives us (cyclists) a bad rap. Motorists see us as just scofflaws and don't respect our right to be on the road because of that. This is really the biggest thing I hear from drivers. Running red lights just makes us all look bad.
You are forgetting a few:
1. Bikers/cyclists are entitled (or think they are better than us.)
2. Bikers/cyclists don't pay for bike lanes/roads.
3. Bikers/cyclists ride in the middle of the lane (and should ride on the sidewalk/or on a different road/or not at all)).
4. Bikers/cyclists ride too slowly (and should ride on the sidewalk/or on a different road/or not at all).
5. Bikers/cyclists ride on the sidewalk and should ride in the bike lane (or on a different road/or not at all).
6. Bikers/cyclists roll stop signs.
7. Bikers/cyclists wear dark clothing/lycra/chartreuse/tights.
8. Bikers/cyclists don't wear helmets.
9. Bikers/cyclists don't use lights.
1. Bikers/cyclists are entitled (or think they are better than us.)
2. Bikers/cyclists don't pay for bike lanes/roads.
3. Bikers/cyclists ride in the middle of the lane (and should ride on the sidewalk/or on a different road/or not at all)).
4. Bikers/cyclists ride too slowly (and should ride on the sidewalk/or on a different road/or not at all).
5. Bikers/cyclists ride on the sidewalk and should ride in the bike lane (or on a different road/or not at all).
6. Bikers/cyclists roll stop signs.
7. Bikers/cyclists wear dark clothing/lycra/chartreuse/tights.
8. Bikers/cyclists don't wear helmets.
9. Bikers/cyclists don't use lights.
I’ve been away from A&S for a while and just happen to note this thread, and skimmed it. As a decades-long, year-round cycle commuter in Boston, and from many discussions with motorists, that is an excellent list. I agree that the opinions of motorists about cyclists’ citizenship in general is way down (and even off) the list.
One public reflection of those motorists’ attitudes is occasionally expressed on a talk radio show here in Boston, The Howie Carr Show, with anti-cycling rants as the topic. I once called in with this reply about filtering and (carefully) running red lights….
One public reflection of those motorists’ attitudes is occasionally expressed on a talk radio show here in Boston, The Howie Carr Show, with anti-cycling rants as the topic. I once called in with this reply about filtering and (carefully) running red lights….
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Where do you encounter all these infuriated people complaining about arrogant and dangerous cyclists? Do they bring these observations gratuitously to you; are they presented in some sort of rationale tone; or is it more like the ranting seen in the comments section of any online publication on any and every subject?
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There are some people out there who just don't like to see bicycles on the road and it makes absolutely no difference to them if a cyclist is following rules or not.
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Where do you encounter all these infuriated people complaining about arrogant and dangerous cyclists? Do they bring these observations gratuitously to you; are they presented in some sort of rationale tone; or is it more like the ranting seen in the comments section of any online publication on any and every subject?
...As a decades-long, year-round cycle commuter in Boston, and from many discussions with motorist [acquaintances], that is an excellent list [of things that give cyclists a bad rap]....
One public reflection of those motorists’ attitudes is occasionally expressed on a talk radio show here in Boston, The Howie Carr Show, with anti-cycling rants as the topic. I once called in with this reply about filtering and (carefully) running red lights….
One public reflection of those motorists’ attitudes is occasionally expressed on a talk radio show here in Boston, The Howie Carr Show, with anti-cycling rants as the topic. I once called in with this reply about filtering and (carefully) running red lights….
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FWIW, IMO, most radio talk call-ins/shock DJ commentary is as representative of intelligent thought as the dingy commentary posted by ranters in response to articles about bicyclists on blogs and newspapers. Does anyone think sensible bicyclists should pay attention and/or modify their cycling behavior in order to try and placate irrational goofballs?
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Where do you encounter all these infuriated people complaining about arrogant and dangerous cyclists? Do they bring these observations gratuitously to you; are they presented in some sort of rationale tone; or is it more like the ranting seen in the comments section of any online publication on any and every subject?
…One public reflection of those motorists’ attitudes is occasionally expressed on a talk radio show here in Boston, The Howie Carr Show with anti-cycling rants as the topic….
FWIW, IMO, most radio talk call-ins/shock DJ commentary is as representative of intelligent thought as the dingy commentary posted by ranters in response to articles about bicyclists on blogs and newspapers. Does anyone think sensible bicyclists should pay attention and/or modify their cycling behavior in order to try and placate irrational goofballs?
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Personally, I am interested in the opinions of those of intelligent thought whether they agree with me or not, and do not necessarily view that anybody who doesn't share my opinion or views as infuriated, irrational or a goofball. I believe intelligent people can tell the difference between rational thought (even when it supports an opposing opinion) and nuthouse ranting (even when it supports a shared opinion).
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Thank you. To be honest I have a hard time following what you are trying to say when you keep referring to snippets of your and others' previous posts from other threads in a very confusing manner. If you wish to repeat phrases or comments from previous posts, I would recommend just cut and paste the words and leave out the references to the other posts and context from other threads.
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If I may veer off-topic:
Thanks for that reply. Just yesterday, a local E-acquaintance on BF wrote,
As a (solo) adherent to a cycling lifestyle for decades, I was astounded to serendipitously find BikeForums in 2008, and meet all these subscribers with concerns and stories I had kept to myself. I wrote in my Introduction,
I have become such an enthusiastic subscriber, that posting has become a veritable hobby/pastime. My profession involves writing too, so in general I enjoy crafting documents and posts as a self-proclaimed "wordsmith."
Last year I came upon a post that to me embodied the communication style that I like about BF. In response to a long quote, turbo1889 wrote:
So when I nest quotes, I feel I’m emulating a conversation…”He said," then “You said," then “I said, and now I’m saying…” I leave my quotes as links to identify the author, and if anyone is interested in reading further, or verifying those quotes, they can easily be followed right from the post.
Instead of just snipping, or writing "<SNIP> or "[SKIP]," I use ellipses,"..." to eliminate as much as possible, and still leave the context of the quote comprehensible; and I bold key words and phrases to emphasize the core content of the discussion.
Furthermore,
While even if nobody reads my posts, I do try to communicate clearly to the reader. At least I try to evenly space, and keep my paragraphs short for easier readability, FWIW.
...To be honest I have a hard time following what you are trying to say when you keep referring to snippets of your and others' previous posts from other threads in a very confusing manner. If you wish to repeat phrases or comments from previous posts, I would recommend just cut and paste the words and leave out the references to the other posts and context from other threads.
As a (solo) adherent to a cycling lifestyle for decades, I was astounded to serendipitously find BikeForums in 2008, and meet all these subscribers with concerns and stories I had kept to myself. I wrote in my Introduction,
Last year I came upon a post that to me embodied the communication style that I like about BF. In response to a long quote, turbo1889 wrote:
First of all you have no need to apologize for a lengthy post, least of all to me of all people. Part of the reason I like forums as apposed to other forms of written communal internet forms is because I consider it the "long deep conversation format" rather then the quick short snappy sound bite like format like twitter and such.
Instead of just snipping, or writing "<SNIP> or "[SKIP]," I use ellipses,"..." to eliminate as much as possible, and still leave the context of the quote comprehensible; and I bold key words and phrases to emphasize the core content of the discussion.
Furthermore,
While even if nobody reads my posts, I do try to communicate clearly to the reader. At least I try to evenly space, and keep my paragraphs short for easier readability, FWIW.
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 03-04-15 at 02:08 PM.
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I was in your shoes about 7 months ago. One of the things that really helped was to seek out our local bike coalition and take a couple of their classes on riding in urban areas. In San Francisco, they have sit-down classes as well as "on the road" classes to help folks become more comfortable and learn their rights and the rules. It helped me feel a lot more confident. Also, see if you can get a map of where the better bike lanes are and map a route that feels safe/comfortable to you.
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Got a bike...can't figure out how to shift the gears down? There are levers next to the brakes. The one on the right shifted the gears up, one on the left seems to have no effect. Needless to say, my legs are rather sore.