Six jours

The real question is why it all upsets you so much.

illwafer

This thread gives me a good opportunity to post pictures of one of my bikes. It is an unknown make, but it the bike it most closely resembles is a Windsor Super Carrera.

I picked up the frame only, and it has some peculiar characteristics that may make it a rando:

1. The chainstays are 17 3/4" (45cm) . That's longer than my Miyata 1000.
2. Cantilever brakes.
3. 3, yes 3 water bottle mounts ON THE DOWNTUBE.
4. The lack of braze ons/mounts. It only have fender eyelets.
5. 32mm tires don't quite fit. The canti mount are very close together.

Oh yeah, it's my frankenbike too, but it gets a lot of burn because the ride is so supple.

I don't think it's a cross bike, and it is not quite up to snuff for touring, except maybe "sport touring".







Here's the whole set if anyone is interested:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/shanesc...7615326651588/

cs1

When you can buy a used Waterford for the same price as a made in Taiwan bike then yeah they're overpriced.

cs1

Exage Mountain and the various Deore front derailleurs are perfect for touring type cranks. They were originally designed for steel frame MTBs. They also were designed with a 46T or 48T big ring triple crank in mind. Most current triple ft ders don't work as well on that kind of crank. Plus everything is AL so all you ever see is clamp-on, 31.8 and 34.9mm ders. Not to say there aren't any new 28.6 versions. They're just no as common as they once were.

andy e

just finished my "rando" build. enjoy!

70's Raleigh International
Nitto Noodle bars w/ mafac drilled levers
Shimano 600EX hubs laced to weinmann concave 700 rims
Panaracer Pasela non-TG 32s
Sugino PX crank w/ TA rings
Dia Compe Centerpulls w/ VO squeal free pads
Brooks B17 on a 3ttt post
Campy chorus pedals
Suntour V GT lux RD
Suntour Sprint FD
Suntour power rachet downtube shifters
Ostrich front and rear bags


still have to put on the honjo's






The ride is really quite amazing! Easy to ride hands free, fairly responsive, quick.

stausty

^ Undeniably a beautiful bike, but put some fenders on it and it would be about perfect for my dream build.

andy e

honjo hammered fenders are sitting in the garage, and rain is supposed to be here sunday... eat your heart out

RFC

Not vintage, but certainly classic. I have since added a compact crank.

nlerner

Nice! I did a double take as I'm working on a '72 Int'l in the same color and will likely be spec'd in a very similar way. I was even thinking about using those very same brake levers (though I'll likely go with Tektro aero). Is that a V-O front rack?

Neal

mkeller234

That Raleigh looks really nice.... there is no way I would feel right riding that one in the rain!

andy e

nlerner: Can't wait to see yours! Yes, a VO constructeur rack, stainless steel, from when they came undrilled. Drilling was quite an effort!

mkeller234: I know... i might have to pull out one of the other rides, but i'll at least ride it in the "wet".

thanks for the compliments!

nlerner

I have an undrilled V-O front rack as well that I planned on putting on the Raleigh. Good thing I have some new sharp drill bits.

Neal

andy e

I used a dremel to start a guide hole, then used progressively larger bits. Make sure you give yourself enough height for the wheel to fit... i wound up with an extra hole on the lower tangs.. (whoops)

jan nikolajsen 

andy e: That bike is scoring high points on my Rando-meter!! It reminds about my own favorite century plus bicycle.

What's the gearing?

USAZorro

I see you have a Gilberto connection as well. Let's all keep him in our thoughts/prayers until he can return from Afghanistan in the spring.

This one doesn't have a Gilberto connection - but he did see it and approve.

andy e

thanks jan! I won't lie, your bike helped me start thinking seriously about this build. The gearing is 46/28 in front.. and i don't remember what is in back..

JunkYardBike

Oh, but Dutch steeds with the same qualify?

I have to say, I've been disappointed with my two experiments on 'vintage' frames. The first, the Japanese Raleigh International posted earlier in the thread, full 531, was very comfortable and not at all slow on flats and moderate ascents, but on serious climbs it sapped my energy and fely unduly flexy and sluggish. I thought the culprit might be the Tiagra/CR-18 wheels with 28c Pasela TGs, but more on that below...



So, I tried a 'rando' build with a Trek TX500 with Ishiwata 022, reputedly stiffer that 531. It does indeed feel a bit stiffer, but still drags up hills. I thought the Campy/Mavic Open Sport wheels with 32c non-TG Paselas might improve climbing -and while this combo does roll nicely - I'm still not impressed.



Then enter the modern Giant OCR2. Yes, call me a heretic. I purchased it originally thinking I could do an idiosyncratic 650B conversion (it's got some decent clearance), but it likely won't fit 40c tires, so what's the point. The thing feels light when I ride it (good planing?), seems far more efficient up hills, and is as comfortable as either the Raleigh or the Trek. I took it on my first century (and likely my last!), something I doubt I could have completed with either of the steel builds. The kicker is that its shoes are the same Tiagra/CR-18/Pasela TGs that were on the Raleigh, but the performance is far superior.



As to weight, the Raleigh and Trek register about 28 lbs, while the Giant is about 4 lbs lighter. Over longer distances, and with significant elevation gains, I think this makes a difference.

It's possible the Raleigh and Trek are simply dogs. Also possible my legs are to blame. But maybe there's a reason the majority of randonneurs are on modern bikes. Not to discount steel frames, of course. Maybe I should be looking at 'classic' road geometry like the Gazelle and older Italian bikes that were built for early to mid century European road surfaces.

Randochap

Just noticed this thread earlier today and had written a long post with lots of links that took me an hour to compose. Lost it to the infuriating tendency of BF to log out.

Condensed recap:

Vancouver Island doesn't have a yearly 1200; it runs quadrennially, like PBP. 2010 next edition. Ken Bonner's year distance record was for NA, not world.

As noted elsewhere, there are almost as many approaches to the "randonneuse" as there are randonneurs. The French-style rando bike has been taken up by N American riders and the Japanese have made a bit of a cult of it, with some extraordinary examples like the Grand Bois bikes -- who also distribute the excellent tyres under the same label.

Most Europeans at events like PBP will be riding off-the-peg racing bikes.

650b bikes are a wonderful experience. Those of us who ride wide 650b tires should feel no compulsion to argue their virtues with theorists. Here's my example. I will be having a new custom version built in 2010. I also have a page on installing aftermarket rando racks and Honjo fenders (all linked from the Bleriot page).

I also own 2 "sport touring" 700C bikes which I've used extensively for randonneuring. Here's my newest titanium "randonnee."

For those who are still unsure about randonneur cycling, here's a primer. From this "rando hub", there's links covering other technical stuff, including a page on the varied approaches to long-distance bikes. There's also lots of bike photos in the main VeloWeb photo galleries and in the Rocky Mountain 1200 galleries.

Some nice-looking bikes here. Thanks.

Bikedued

There's the Univega Gran Turismo. Built by Miyata, and nearly shared a frame with the Expedition. I also have a Miyata 1000. They must ride better loaded, mine rides a little stiff unless I drop my usual tire pressure down a bit.,,,,BD

akcapbikeforums

THE LIST: The following list of 38 vintage steel, lugged touring (potentially randonneur) bikes floats around C&V in various forms. Some models are more well known or common, but even the more obscure models generally have descriptive threads here on C&V. Some are more suitable for full touring, some are more suitable for rondo... but notice, the list doesn't begin and end with Miyata.

It's doubtful that Sheldon Brown rode all of these bikes and had the chance to wax poetically about each. And just because C&V owners of 1000's and Expeditions love their bikes, doesn't mean the others don't have plenty to recommend them.

Bridgestone RB-T
Bridgestone T-500
Bridgestone T-700
Centurion Pro Tour
Centurion Elite GT
Fuji America [edit, added to list]
Fuji Touring Series IV
Fuji Touring Series V
Kuwahara Caravan (Kuwahara made Nishiki and Azuki bikes)
Lotus Odyssey
Miyata 610
Miyata 1000
Nashbar ST*
Nishiki Continental
Nishiki Cresta GT
Nishiki International (later years only)
Nishiki Riviera GT
Nishiki Seral
Panasonic PT-3500
Panasonic PT-5000
Panasonic Pro Touring
Panasonic Touring Deluxe
Raleigh Portage
Raleigh Alyeska
Raleigh Kodiak
Raleigh Super Tourer
Raleigh Touring 18
Schwinn Paramount P15-9 Tourer
Schwinn Passage (one year only)
Schwinn Voyageur/Voyageur SP
Specialized Expedition
Specialized Sequoia
Takara Overland
Trek 520
Trek 620
Trek 720
Univega Gran Tourismo
Univega Specialissima

*The Nashbar ST, one of the obscure bikes on the list, CrMo double-butted tubing of unknown grade, parallel 72 degree angles , 40.5" wheelbase, 17.5" chainstays, 2.5" rake, chrome dropout flats and fork crown, lo-rider fork mounts and rear rack bosses on the seat stays. Made by?


TIP: Looking for a touring / sport touring / rondo? Use THE LIST and Searchtempest.com to search Craigslist widely... along with Ebay etc.

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USAZorro

Two notes on the list.

1. Fuji America? Seems it should be on the list of touring bikes. Are there others?

2. These are touring bicycles, which can sometimes make for good choices for randonneuring, but not necessarily (as I have already discovered).

jan nikolajsen 

Caught in th act!! Forgot I wrote that. Must have had a bad day on the Cinelli.

Otherwise your post is also very thought provoking. Maybe we simply need to bow to modernity and realize that the technological advancements of our sport are indeed advantageous. I personally have never been on a roadbike newer than 1992, but I'll readily admit that my 2009 Marin 29'er hardtail is vastly superior to all the other MTBs I've owned.

To keep riding way beyond the daily limit, one will likely need as much comfort as performance. In my experience, old racing frames meticulously selected for fit provides this at a reasonable cost. What I don't know is whether a carefully sized, brand new Carbon-TI-Aluminum bike will be equally rideable after hundreds of miles.Obviously it will outperform old steel at all other points.

I also wonder, Junkyardbike, if the two older bikes of yours would rival the Giant beyond, say 200-300 miles, when the subtleties of true comfort really start to matter?

JunkYardBike

I'll never know! But if I were to guess, I'd offer a definitive 'no' if we're talking about a hilly course. After about 60 miles or so, they both become very laborious to drag up hills, while the Giant feels much lighter and more efficient. Also, the Giant can probably fit 32c tires (without fenders) so that negates some of the discomfort associated with aluminum bikes, and the geometry is 'sport touring' not criterium.

However, I believe your Gazelle may be ideal, falling between the 'sport touring' and 'crit' geometries, and permitting wide tires and fenders. It's possible that's the 'feel' I'd prefer, opposed to the lazy-day comfort of my Trek and Raleigh.

On the other hand, I've done some distance riding with smeone who rides a vintage Trek nearly identical to mine, and he absolutely rides circles around me. I can better keep up with him on the Giant, but he still crushes me.

What's that they say about the engine?

nlerner

JYB, I do think that lots of variables play a role in how good a climber a bike might feel (and it really is "feel" that might be most important; we're you actually slower on the two steel bikes and faster on the Giant?). How do the geometries of those bikes compare, particularly chain stay length and seat tube angle?

Last year, on a trip to Las Vegas I went out with a friend to a bike shop in the foothills where we rented alu Specialized bikes and headed up to Red Rocks Nat'l Monument. It was about 3,000 ft of climbing over a fairly short distance, and I do have to say that the sub-20lb Specialized was quite a good climber, but it rattled the heck out of me on the downhills and flats with its 23mm tires and non-dampening frame material. I was really wishing I was on my '71 Raleigh Int'l with its 30mm Grand Bois Cypres tires.

But, heck, if the Giant is going to work for you, particularly if you can fit some wider tires on it, go for it.

Neal

JunkYardBike

I felt fine after the century (my legs not so much), and haven't noticed the 'buzz' some people complain about with aluminum frames. It does have a carbon fork, which I understand is superior to steel at dampening road vibrations. I'd really like to try some Gran Bois tires with upgraded wheels...it's on my long term want list.

As for geometry, I was surprised to learn the seat tube angle is identical to the trek (both 73 degrees) although I feel more 'forward' on the Giant (my preference) with the saddle in a comparable position. The chainstays on the Giant are 42cm vs. the 44.5cm on the Trek, so that will obviously have an impact on climbing efficiency.

I'd be curious what the chainstay length is on jan's Gazelle.