livedarklions

The logic of posting this meme here sucks.

If you buy it, you're jumping to the conclusion it's ok. If you don't buy it, you're risking erring on the side of caution, which is a vanishingly small cost in this case. If you suggest someone should investigate it, you're not jumping to anything, but leaving the conclusion to someone else.

Jeff Neese

I'm hardly skipping over the moral issue - I'm addressing it head on. This item is being offered for sale publicly, for all to see. There is nothing underhanded occurring at all. The seller may very well be a scumbag and if you just don't want to do business with scumbags, that's a different story. But to avoid buying this bike and letting someone else pick it up instead, just because you have a "bad feeling" about it and you think it might be stolen, is just silly. Do you pass up a garage sale find, just because in your opinion the people look sketchy? If it's out in the driveway where the police and everyone else can see it, I'd say you're probably in the clear both morally and practically. Same thing with this bike.

Jeff Neese

It happens all the time. Someone puts a bike away in a garage or basement and leaves the cable or U-lock wrapped around the frame. Years and years go by, somebody decides to clean out the garage and sell that old bike, and the key is nowhere to be found. The fact that the lock is intact is probably more evident of it NOT being stolen. Stolen bikes will have the lock cut off, right?

Pop N Wood

No, not silly, just what any truly responsible person would do.

If you can't see it from the moral aspect, think of the risk you take dealing with shady people. Stolen goods can be recovered by their rightful owner at any time, and crooks being crooks, might put a gun in your face and just take your money.

livedarklions

Not if it's stolen out of a garage or house. Also, I've seen enough wheels locked to bike racks to know that this could easily happen if someone got lazy with their 2 lock strategy and only used one incorrectly.

livedarklions

Serious indicators it may be stolen. When you willfully ignore that to "rescue the frame", you are creating the demand for the product and are therefore morally complicit. "They could find it if they happen upon it" is not an excuse for knowingly encouraging the trade in stolen goods.

And I'd absolutely pass up a "good deal" on the street if the seller seemed sketchy, that's nuts. Pretty sure you and I have very different moral compasses and, frankly, I'd question whether you lack basic common sense if you're frequently buying "too good to be true" deals from shady strangers.

livedarklions

It's really stupid from a legal perspective as well. Someone who gets busted selling stolen goods could try to plead their way out of it by setting up buyers for the cops.

JohnDThompson 

Unless the seller has the key/combination to open that lock.

Jeff Neese

I think we're talking about two different scenarios. I am in 100% agreement with you, if this is a situation where somebody pulls me aside and says "You looking for a nice bike? I've got some out in the garage - come take a look" and then he unlocks the garage so I can see what he's got.

We're talking about someone that has publicly offered something for sale, that anyone can come and examine, and purchase legally. He probably even posted a picture of it in the listing. What actual reason is there for thinking this bike is stolen? What I'm hearing is that because the guy has a drug problem, people are jumping to the conclusion that anything he sells must be stolen. Ridiculous.

Jeff Neese

There are a million reasons why the key or combination might be lost, if a bike is put away and forgotten about for a long time.

Jeff Neese

If you had serious reason to think that a bike might have been stolen, a quick call to the police department would take care of that. Tell them what it is you're planning to buy and from whom, the make and model and color, and then they'll tell you whether one of those has been reported stolen or they'll give you the all-clear to go ahead and buy the bike.

They'll tell you that most stolen bicycles do not end up brazenly posted on Craigslist or FB Marketplace, but they will thank you for your concern. Then they'll tell you to go ahead and buy the bike.

livedarklions

A. Not jumping to conclusions at all, there's enough there that I cannot safely assume it's not stolen. I'm going to err on the side of not buying stolen goods any day. And yes, if I don't know anything else about a person, a recent bust for meth possession is a red flag for me. Sorry, but a lot of my job is dealing with the consequences of drug user behavior, and the stuff that goes with meth use is often really intense.

B. Stolen goods are sold on Craigslist all the time. It's notorious for it. If anything, you're jumping to the conclusion that purchase is safe because of where it's listed. That's ridiculous.

WGB 

It amazes me that in most American states you can easily determine if a neighbor has a Criminal record but you can't determine if what he/she is selling is stolen. You can find their personal information but not the legality of an object.

In Canada we have it the other way around. The personal data is secure and not viewable by the public but we can determine if an item is stolen.

Any Canadian can check a serial number. Bike, cars, out board motor, if it has a serial number it can be checked by you, prior to a purchase. If the serial number is filed out or altered run the other way.

If you have a cellphone with data, use the below link prior to buying. The first link is to the general page for "everything". The second link is specific to bikes. Save your search and if the law comes a-knocking you can show it wasn't reported stolen when you bought it. I have told people what I would check the VIN when I got there and I never had a problem. If they said there was an issue I wouldn't show.

https://app.cpic-cipc.ca/English/search.cfm

Search Bicycles by Serial Number

livedarklions

Total horsecrap. I was a grand juror a few years back. One of the cases we dealt with involved pimping young girls on Craigslist. The reason they had to take down the whole "personals" section of Craigslist is precisely because it's way too hard for anyone to be vigilant enough to monitor it consistently for illegal activity.
I deal with a lot of cops in my job. I'm fairly certain that absolutely none of them would agree with what you just posted. I'm quite sure that they'd tell you that if you have suspicions, you should definitely walk away.

And ultimately, this frame is really not worth the time it would take for me to find out enough to get comfortable with the transaction. Based on the info op has posted, I'm at the "why bother" point.

I'm tired of this discussion, and frankly I'm not going to bother reading any further response from you. I really have better things to do than refuting nonsense you're putting into cops' mouths.

biker128pedal

I agree it looks like it’s not worth the time. One thought. On the same site or Craig’s List did anyone post a picture of the assembled bike reporting it stolen? I look over Craig’s List just to look. A few years ago I saw a nice Specialized road bike list for sale. Then a few listings later a post with a picture about a so similar bike being stolen. Came out good. Contacted the guy who posted it stolen with the sellers link. The Richmond police took care of it and the bike was returned. Not sure what happened to the crook. Does not happen often but a nice ending. On the motorcycle sites victims post pictures and VIN number. So if a possible buyer searches for the VIN it will pop up.

Jeff Neese

My point is that you can't be accused of buying stolen merchandise, if it was advertised publicly or sitting on the shelf of a store, where you or anyone else could buy it. If a shop buys bicycles that were stolen off a truck, but then they are put on full display in his store, you the end consumer are not culpable.

Anything sold on Craigslist COULD be stolen, and if you want to err on the side of safety, you need to make every single person document the origins of everything you may buy. Or are you going to just judge on an individual basis, based on your "gut feel"?

I make the assumption that things advertised for sale are not stolen, unless I have a real, actual reason for thinking otherwise.

shelbyfv

It's a little off topic but OP was concerned that he found out seller is a meth head. Statistically meth addicts have very little chance of recovery. Very little, regardless of treatment. And they cannot lead product lives while addicted. Both of these characteristics differ from users of other substances. These unfortunates have gone down a one way hole. Best to stay out of their orbit, no matter how enticing the deal.

mstateglfr 

I bet half the people on CL selling bikes in my area wouldn't know the year their bike was manufactured. And I bet even fewer legitimate owners have registered their bike's serial #.

mstateglfr 

I see locks on bikes for sale and don't think they are stolen. I think they were locked up when ridden places.
I see bikes for sale with stuff on em that isnt for sale like bottles, GPS, and wedge bags. I see bikes for sale with flat tires, chains off rings, and bars flipped up.
i mention this because i see bikes for sale in various forms of condition and don't think they are stolen. I just think the owners are lazy and/or don't know any better.
Leaving a lock on the bike isn't an indicator of theft to me. Maybe I am missing something obvious here.


Its all about what the default perspective is. If Glenn looks at all bikes and considers them stolen until proven otherwise, then the Glenn didn't jump to conclusions.
Thats an exhausting way to live, but sure i accept he wouldn't jump to a conclusion since its his default position for everything used.
One sould ask why they would participate in used sales if they consider everything stolen though. And perhaps Glenn only buys new unless someone has paperwork dating back decades in hand.


The jump to conclusions mat is a perfect meme as it references a hilarious scene of a funny movie and describes Glenn's response. He hears a bike has a lock on it and is sold by someone with a drug arrest and concludes the bike is stolen- thats basically the perfect reason to say he jumped to conclusions.
At least it is the perfect reason for me to say it.


Perspective is fascinating.

dedhed

Much less even find the serial number given the numerous locations mfg put them.

Lemond1985

If anyone can prove conclusively that any of my bikes were stolen from them, I would be happy to hand them back over, with a sincere apology, and an explanation that I paid fair market value for all of them, in situations that seemed legit to me at the time. What more can a person do? My worrying is done over more serious things, like whether I'm getting enough protein.

flangehead

This has been an interesting thread with lots of what-ifs, maybes and whatnot.

I suspect there is unanimity on this forum that bike theft is bad. Theft is wrong. And readers here are sensitive to bike theft.

An important part of the bike theft ecosystem is converting stolen goods to cash.

So we all should take reasonable actions (like the OP did) to not support bike thieves.

• Buy a bike from my brother? How do I know he didn't steal it?
• Buy cassette from a guy with cardboard boxes under a bridge? How do I know he didn't obtain them legally?

Clearly, absolute certainty is hard to achieve.

Point is, regardless of laws and enforcement and all that complication, we need to take a reasonable effort to discourage bike theft and encourage others to do the same.

Olefeller77 

I bought a $40 old steel bike at an estate sale with locked cable lock wound around under the seat . I wasn't the least bit concerned that it might be stolen . I lifted the fenders and collapsing steel rack and gave it to an old fella down the street.
Not once did I have a thought it might be stolen.
The mindset of some people scares the bejeebies out of me.

Milton Keynes

If it is stolen then giving the guy money for it just encourages more bike theft. Plus if it's stolen then you're in possession of stolen property, which receiving stolen property is a crime in most states. Even if you're not charged, if the police recover it you would be out the money you paid for it.

Milton Keynes

And if you're selling a stolen frame why the heck wouldn't you take the time to cut the cable lock off first?