Ozonation

Then don't buy it. I've tried to point out that a few pounds isn't the end of the world, but for you, it is the world. So be it. If you already have a bike that meets your needs, no need to obsess over the Helix and its supposed failures. It evidently doesn't fit your needs or wants: it isn't light enough; it isn't innovative enough; it isn't enough of anything on your self-designated list of "must meet" criteria. But it clearly it fits or potentially fits others' needs. It's a big world out there: we don't all drive Model T Fords anymore.

Ozonation

According to the statistics I could find, about 39% of KS projects actually get funded. Another source cited that 65% of backers agreed that the reward was delivered on time. The other 35% isn't exactly clear, but it appears that the reward was not delivered (as promised presumably), or outright failed to materialize (2009-2015). So, of all the KS campaigns, about 25% get funded and actually go through to a reasonable level of satisfaction.

In 2017, KS reports that the average amount raised by successfully funded KS projects was about $21,700. The median amount for a project was just over $5000. In other words, the majority of most successfully funded projects are probably much smaller scale projects with significantly less complexity than what the Helix aspires to... ever see how many backpacks pop up on KS?

The Helix project is therefore several orders of magnitude greater in difficulty than the average KS project. It raised an incredible amount of money for a KS campaign; suggesting that it tapped into a niche that people wanted. But it's a complex project - not as complex as say, an automobile, but one that is demonstrably more involved than a bag or a belt, etc. And as we've seen over almost four long years of waiting - as others have belabored repeatedly on this forum - maybe Helix bit off more than it could chew; it wasn't being realistic; it should have had a different business plan; it maybe should have had better predesign and premanufacture conceptualization; the list goes on. Maybe, maybe not. I'm not a start up company, or even care to be one, so I can't relate and I won't judge on what should or should not have been done.

But the point is that KS is a risk - period. Sure I get it that people are upset that they invested a significant amount and had to wait so long, but despite what anybody claims, shouts, and yells about... it's a risk. You're buying into some person's vision; there are no guarantees that it will materialize and if it does, it might still change. If you thought you were getting a bike and Helix gave you a unicycle, that would be a different matter. But aside from a few minor changes and a few pounds, backers are getting 98% or more of they paid for. It went from some guy's vision, to prototype, to now this. First iteration. Considering the scope of the Helix project, that seems pretty damn good, especially in an era of firmware updates, OS updates, and perpetual recalls. And the backers got this at an amazing price, titanium or not.

But the bottom line is if you can't accept that risk, then don't invest. This is a niche product in a niche forum - I highly doubt anybody who backed Helix is "hurting over the money" invested; they should have been prepared to lose the money outright. If they invested and thought this was a guaranteed outcome, then they bluntly took a chance they should not have. Given the success rate of KS and the nature of the project relative to others, people should actually be more surprised that Helix seems to have succeeded rather than failed.

Hope for the best; prepare for the worst.

Ozonation

Well said.

linberl

I'm curious about the mechanism that locks and unlocks the stem/fork. From the videos, it appears one pumps it then turns it. The pumping part seems quite easy but the turning part......just how much finger strength is needed? As an older person with small hands and not a lot of finger strength, I find myself "leaning" my leg onto the QR lever on my bike seats to lock them at the mast. If the tension on the Helix "lever" is similar, I doubt I could get sufficient leverage on that twisty piece. Interesting design option, wonder if it might be difficult for older folks who maybe have a touch of arthritis in their hands.

Joe Remi

Without any preconceived notions I see a titanium bike at a steel weight. This does not make sense to my brain or wallet.

borjita

I would add you also get disk brakes in both wheels.
And 10 gears, a wide range in a compact folder!
And nice engineering build (for those of us that appreciate that kind of things).
And modern components (brake levers, gear triggers, etc).
Overall a pretty modern design, if you like modern stuff.

For me, Bromptons are somehow cute from the distance, but I feel rejection when I see the details. I think about London taxis when I see them: the design was great in 1950 but feels totally outdated - details such as opening the windows by turning a primitive lever and then manually pulling down/up the glass... sorry engineering has evolved so much without loosing robustness/simplicity. I get the same kind of feelings with Bromptons when I see the triggers, brake levers, how the metal is bent in the real triangle or fork, and so on.
The latest Bromptons (from 2017) are improving a bit (new gear trigger finally looks ergonomic), but at this rate it will take 20 years till they catch up with modern engineering and design.

2_i 

Did you actually try any air travel with Brompton inside or did actually just read assurances by the manufacturer?? Few years into Chubby being on the market I could not find any report of single air travel with Chubby carrying a Brompton not to say about any more extended experience. I bought the Chubby early on, just to find it significantly exceeding the manufacturer's claimed dimensions and the airline limits on standard checked-in luggage. To make it worse, its oblong shape was likely to invite a check-in agent to use a tape. Well familiar with the check-in dynamics, I decided not to risk the oversize/bike fees that I could not afford and decided to return the trailer. Radical Designs promised to look into trimming the size of their trailer, but to my knowledge nothing happened. They brought though the dimensions claimed on their website closer to reality and started warning customers about padding the bike when putting it into the trailer, suggesting that there were problems with the cloth tearing, if someone actually put the bike in. In the meantime I started using the Bike Friday trailer system that actually works with air travel and is not just claimed to do so.

berlinonaut

Well obviously it is as light as possible for Helix to make currently. Why on earth are you so obsessed with bullying a bike that you do have no stake in and not any interest of becoming a customer for as it seems in every aspect to be the opposite of what you want? You are not the only person in the world and obviously there seem to be some people that like the bike. What is your problem with that?

Interesting. Looking at the montague-lineup the bikes closest to the Helix characterwise are probably the crosstown (rated at 28lbs but much cheaper than the Helix) and the fit, rated at 26 lbs (but with more gears). Even their 2500$ top of the range Paratrooper Elite is rated at 27 lbs. How would those (or any other bike from their stock lineup) be "much lighter" than the Helix?

The Helix has been ISO/EN certified and vastly overfulfilled all the tests as it has been outlined in this very thread numerous times. The question remains: Has your 2000$ frame and your 3600$ Brompton-clone that you built from it passed any of those tests? If not: how comes that you spent an amount of money that equals more than two Helix bikes on that bike if those tests are so important to you? Passing those tests is btw. mandantory if you want to legally sell bikes in most countries of the western world (and some of the eastern world, too AFAIK). Ignoring those obviously safes a lot of money, time and effort, enables using shortcuts in production, avoiding quality management and my put the buyers at risk. Obviously one of the areas where the clones safe money and one aspect of many why they are able to sell for less money.

AvnerBen

yes, I used that trailer for air travel and had no problem with Lufthansa and El Al, with the exception of having to carry it to the irregular sized baggage port, but with no additional fee. Of course I don't mean using as hand check-in bag, because, where I come from, tit limit on that is 8-10 kg. I rather meant as suitcase where the limit is 23kg.
The Chubby has a rectangular shape. The Cyclone had an oblong shape (and somewhat better riding experience), but unfortunately, will not accommodate a folded Brompton...
Cyclone trailers use 16" wheels, which gives a smooth riding experience, including on gravel and rather rough terrain and sand. I understand the bike Friday trailer has smaller wheels so I doubt it would be as comfortable.
I think the quoted advice is unnecessary, since one naturally "pads" a bicycle case with whatever soft equipment that won't get into the handbag.
BTW, Peter mentioned he planned on the accessoryline also a Bike Friday style hard case that may be used as trailer (alas, with small wheels)

berlinonaut

Have you owned one? They are still - after more than 40 years - the best in class when it comes to folding. They were developed as commuter bikes and are definitively fit for that purpose and got enhanced each and every year. You can do other things with them as well (and many people do), but obviously for many of those purposes other bikes are better suited than the Brompton. You possibly do not complain the lack of off road capabilities of a Ferrari I'd assume. If the Brompton fits your taste is obviously: a matter of taste. I for my part do not need electric powered windows on my Brompton. I'd even avoid them if they existed. Many people that own cars made in the 90ies today make the unpleasant experience that the electronics in those cars offer more comfort than earlier models had - but only as long as they work. Unfortunately they do not work as long as their mechanical anchestors and if they break they are expensive or even impossible to fix. So I for my part favor simple constructions as they last and if they have proven to last many years they are probably a good investment due to reliability. Others may consider those to be old fashioned - let's talk again twenty years later... Given how many bikes Brompton sells I am not alone. Neither are you and luckily there are other brands as well that may fit your taste but not mine.

berlinonaut

The good thing is that - same as over the last three years - it still does not matter. You have no stake in the company, you are no customer of their's and obviously you do not plan to become one. Where is the problem?

Ozonation

And? The Helix made sense to literally hundreds of other backers and pre-order customers. If it doesn't meet your needs and if you have no desire to get one, great. As many have alluded to, to each their own.

RatonLaveur

Fantastic outcome! Thank you as well for sharing pictures, videos, substantiated information on the bike. It exists!
I find fantastic too that it seems the current version of the finished bike seems to be even more polarizing than the whole thread!
This thread keeps on giving and giving....we don't know either if everyone will get their bike or if the company will be perennial even (some gasoline for your fires). But I'm betting they will.
I agree with Joe and the berliner both. "Heavy" and expensive but frankly nothing that's far out of expectations. We knew the read dropout, souped-up lefty fork and beefy redundant locking mechanisms would add to the weight as compared to the anemic demo bike in the KS campaign. We also know theres room for improvement as it looks quite overbuilt and the demo bike exists, there must be a middle ground. If there isn't we still get a cool looking, rather small folding (it seems to be significantly smaller than a comparable 24" Tern/Dahon and not significantly larger than Brompton) large bicycle (right between a Brompton and a Montague). Seems to fit in it's own niche.
​​​​I love that it's out there, looking forward to further review and Peter's next order bid...who knows, he may still get my dollars out of sheer respect for the thing. Beautiful object. After all, comparatively speced regular non folders easily get in the same price range...no brainer in my book.



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2_i 

Thanks, this is good to hear. I may then look into Chubby again. Its wheels and overall user-friendliness were indeed superior to the Bike Friday system. Weight-wise it may be tight for me as I built up my Brompton so much that with a heavy-duty lock it hovers around 17kg. Within the US system I did take on the Brompton as a carry-on, but I would rather refrain from doing it again - too much stress for my taste.

Ozonation

Ha! You're just here for the drama, eh?

I think the forum admins should give us all an award for our contributions to the entertainment world.

borjita

I've used them (friends) and I really really really love how smart the folding design is, best ever by far!!
But I can't cope with the vintage design, it is very important for me. Some of us prefer modern aesthetics and are glad to sacrifice a bit of other features (weight, size...) to get a bit of that.

I see the Brompton shifters (pre 2017) and I automatically feel in a bad mood. And even if the new shifters are a bit nicer, Brompton has 30+ other things that trigger my allergy to vintage. Not to talk about the Brooks seats...

I just can't avoid it. I wish it did not happen and only enjoy the practicality and tight fold of the Brompton. I just can't! :-)

AvnerBen

my P6RX Brompton fully equipped (but with Russian-made titanium rack) weighs 13.5kg. This leaves a little over 3kg for equipment, which is not much. It is left to see how much the helix rack and mudguard weigh. With the recently published measurements, I don't expect the saving to be significant, but even half a kilo could be substantial inn bike touring!
BTW, which version of the Cubby do you have: 3 or 4?

Joe Remi

As I'm sure I've explained to you several times, this is an opinion forum. You are not required to read, care about, or in any way acknowledge my opinions on things. This isn't complicated.

Ozonation

What? You don't like the Brooks saddles? How can you not like them? That's, that's... well, they are kind of overpriced. But comfortable.

I love my Brompton: the fold, the quirkiness, but yes, I have a 2013 model, and the shifters are... kind of cheap feeling, and the brake levers are... well, they're brake levers. And the bike came originally with these super cheap looking foam tube handles. I couldn't believe a bike of this quality and price could not be bothered to come with decent handle grips.

Joe Remi

Someone posted a "what if you saw it for the first time" comment and I responded to the hypothetical. See above, opinions on opinion forums.

berlinonaut

Yes, you have been pretty vocal about that fact over the course of the last years. And about your opinion about the Helix as well. I'd say it is a fair assumption that almost everone on this thread got it. Most more than once. Hell, many suffer from an overdose already. No need to constantly repeat it. It does not add more weight to it. In the good old times there used to be a thing called "netiquette" and one thing it adviced to do was "tell something new". Maybe something to think about.

https://xkcd.com/1357/

borjita

I know, but too vintage for my pretty ass :-)
Back to the Helix, would you install a Brooks saddle there? It feels so out of place with the rest of the bike.

Ozonation

I won't comment on your ass... out of respect. ...

I don't know if I would install a Brooks saddle on the Helix. To be fair, I find the Brooks saddle to be extremely comfortable, but yes, I can see how it might be out of place. However, Brooks does offer ones in black that could work (black goes with everything!), as well as a non-leather, textured version that might work.

Ozonation

Damn. Now look what you made me go and do. I went to the Brooks website... and they have a deep red Cambium (non leather) saddle. Ooooo.... if the Helix is a deepish grey, the red would really stand out! Good grief... here I am thinking on how to accessorize a bike only 5 people in the world have.

And... you could get red pedals... and deep red leather wrap for the handles.... oooooo.... this merits some window shopping...

Joe Remi

The weight of the bike is new and unexpected, and I will not be bullied off this forum. Write this down.