CarinusMalmari

You don't have anything but your insistence to read something in my post that isn't there. I really can't help you with that.

wphamilton

Only if you insist on being reasonable and logical about it.

I have long advocated that a person who habitually wears a helmet no matter what, who feels somehow "wrong" without it, should occasionally forgo it for a few rides until that feeling passes. And the same for those who never wear one - put it on for a few rides until it doesn't feel ridiculous. Diminishes the emotional component.

mr_bill

And likewise, the all but useless few ounces of fabric only come into play when someone was NOT SAFE.

So if you are someone who feels somehow "wrong" without wearing a seatbelt, you should forgo buckling up for a few drives until that feeling passes. Likewise someone who NEVER uses their seatbelts should buckle up for a few drives until it doesn't feel ridiculous. That's useful "thinking."

It's only reasonable and logical.

-mr. bill

Steamtrain76

Thats an excellent angle to introduce to this topic!
Logic and Emotion... taking rhe time to seperate and identify whats guiding our choices.

Great comment my friend.

wphamilton

I don't wear a seatbelt when driving 10 mph in a parking lot, and if I felt an irrational compulsion to buckle up when there is no risk I'd be worried about it. It's just logical, rational risk assessment and good mental hygiene.

wphamilton

Believe it or not, you are the first person to post agreement with that on this thread.

mr_bill

I wonder why you drive 10 mph in an empty parking lot, but hey, whatever floats your hygiene.

-mr. bill

wphamilton

Did I say that it was empty?

The point is that analogies fail when you disregard rational risk assessments.

mr_bill

If the parking lot is not empty, then the risk assessment that there is "no risk" is in error.
(I won't even go into the human propensity to UNDER estimate speed.)

-mr. bill

wphamilton

That doesn't follow. Anyway enough of this, let njkayaker and CarinusMalmari get back to their tit-for-tat argument, without us adding our own sniping.

CarinusMalmari

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/pretentious

JeffOYB

i'm pretty sure that far more walkers and runners get head injuries than bikers. or you could just say that "lots of walkers and runners get head injuries." it may well also be that the speeds involved are lower than in biking and thus make helmets much more effective. so that if walkers and runners wore helmets we'd see a huge reduction in injury, huge improvement in safety.

also, despite many wonderful gains in car driver safety due to airbags, etc., there are still very many head injuries at all sorts of speeds -- helmets should certainly be part of car travel if safety is a concern.

the by-far #1 hugest source of head injury is the bathroom -- if safety was actually anyone's concern, it seems likely that in one year that billions$ could be saved if everyone was mandated to have a helmet on a hook outside their bathrooms. i suppose it would be ok to take it off during haircare but otherwise, get it back on right away.

safety nags have grabbed biking as a punching bag. but we can just take it away from them by asking why is biking being singled out for such awkward concern, coddling and intrusion.

in short, whenever we see any info about helmets couldn't we apply it instantly to walkers, runners, cars, bathrooms? (and in many cases with more efficacy.)

(this is my horse and I shall ride it til dissuaded by reason.)

CarinusMalmari

There is essentially no practical way to offer cyclists adequate physical protection in case things go south. You can add some padding, like a bicycle helmet f.e., but that's not going to do a whole lot in case of a crash. Prevention is indeed key to cycling safety, bicycle helmets are in the category "other things you can do".

PanoramicPixel

I've had quite a few impacts to the head as a kid. Many I had to go to the hospital for. And I've even been knocked out. I don't like impacts to my skull. So when I ride I wear a helmet incase anything happens it can help lessen the damage if an impact occurs. Since I ride year round as a form of transportation I have had some small spills(mainly on ice) where I tapped my head on the ground. Impacts strong enough to give concussion or possibly cause me to lose consciousness. But thanks to the helmet I was only mildly disoriented for a moment. Checked for injuries, then went on my way. I wear fluorescent clothes, have reflective sidewalls, use lights. I don't think these things automatically protect me, but for the few instances they save me from an incident when simply taking the safest action wasn't enough. I'm glad I use them.

I see plenty of people ride my local towpath without a helmet. Usually just cruising. That's fine by me. It's because I ride in traffic and in bad conditions that I always wear one to make it a habbit. I only forgot to wear it once and it was in a terribly icy snow storm a few years ago. Conditions I probably needed it the most haha.

JeffOYB

You don't say what the impacts came from or how you think their risks might change as you age. Like, if you hit your head while messing around playing in the yard or running down the sidewalk, do you now think that kids should wear helmets at such times? Nobody likes to hit their head, I'm sure. But how do you factor in the reality that most head injuries are from slip'n'falls from walking/running? Do you do those two activities? I'm curious as to why you decided to apply an enhanced safety concern to biking as regards head injury when several common activities cause so many more. You mention riding in traffic -- but the bigger the speed differentials the less a helmet helps. Slower activities are much better for helmets. (My curiosity is mild. I hope you notice that I'm not shouting, accusing or insulting.)

I personally wear a helmet when I feel more at risk -- usually when mtbiking or skiing near trees or in a race. But to me it seems like a lot of our safety attitude is skewed and has been distorted and that biking gets picked on and hijacked by awkward people and turned into a turnoff. So when I ride around the neighborhood in summer, wearing seersucker, I wear a Panama for shade and style.

MRT2

Are you sure about that? If you are going to make an assertion, at least back it up with a link.

MRT2

Again, are you sure about that? Most of the numbers I have seen suggests that at least in children, cycling is among the leading causes of head injuries, way beyond football, baseball and running.

PanoramicPixel

I just meant I am very weary about hitting my head. Because of past experiences I have a higher paranoia than most people. I'm always a "better safe than sorry" person. Can it potentially help prevent or lessen an injury? yes. Will it negatively impact me by wearing it? No. And I'm sorry I don't know the statistics on head injuries in different activities. I just thought "Oh this could help prevent brain damage". I explained my reasons whether they be rational or irrational. These are the reasons I choose to do so. If others don't want to that is fine. It's helped my head stay injury free a couple of times already. I'm gonna keep rolling with it.

prathmann

The numbers I've seen that emphasize cycling as a cause have been comparing it to "other sports." But when I was a child I never felt that my cycling was a sport - it was a way to visit friends, get to playgrounds, etc. And as an adult it was again never a 'sport'. Although much of my cycling was for recreation, it also constituted most of my daily commuting, getting the groceries and other shopping, etc. Labeling and comparing my cycling to a 'sport' makes as much sense as lumping every day driving in with Nascar statistics on motorsport safety and concluding that "Nascar and other motorsports result in about 35000 deaths annually."

According to https://www.cdc.gov/traumaticbraininjury/get_the_facts.html
"Every day, 153 people in the United States die from injuries that include TBI," so head injuries are involved in about 56000 deaths/year in the US. In comparison there are about 800 cycling deaths/year. So even if all the cycling deaths involve head injuries, they would amount to less than 1.5% of the total head injury related deaths.

If you're looking for a way to put any kind of significant dent in head injury deaths by wearing helmets then going after only bicyclists is clearly not the way to achieve that. JeffOYB is correct that one should instead (or at least in addition) look at the other causes that contribute over 98.5% of the fatal head injuries.

JeffOYB

I was just wondering why ppl single out biking. Like, if in the past you'd hit your head often while biking. Or maybe as an adult you feel slightly wobbly on a bike and so want to armor up a bit. I'm trying to see if there's any connection to be found to biking. If there isn't then maybe the angle is just pick any activity randomly?

I can understand -- like anyone can -- that it's really bad to get a head injury. But I just don't know when to wear the helmet. Personally, I've slipped most often in my driveway.

As was just posted after your post, 98% of TBI's are from non-biking, so I just don't see the biking connection.

Helmets are also really common for rollerblading. Less so for ice-skating but they'd fit there, too. ...The old "whoops out go the feet!" fall is probably a common source of TBI for all types of skating.

Tripping, slipping, being in cars, and peds being hit by cars -- bet those are the most common TBI sources.

mr_bill

Tripping - remove trip hazards. For elders, canes/walkers.
Slipping - remove slip hazards, non-skid shoes. For elders, canes/walkers.
Bathroom - remove slip hazards, non-skid surfaces, grab bars.
Stairs - remove trip/slip hazards, railings. For elders, railings on both sides.
Automobiles - padded interiors/seatbacks, seatbelts, front airbags, side-cushion airbags, side-curtain airbags.
Pedestrians/cars - sidewalks/crosswalks.

As far as skating, for speed/ice hockey helmets required.

For figure skating, required for youth and recommended for elders. (Same with curling now too.)

For non-motor transportation - horses, inline skates, roller skates, skateboards, bicycles. Helmets often required for youth, recommended for others. (For non-motorized transportation, horses are the number one source of TBI.)

For motor transportation - Automobiles, see above. Scooters, Motorcycles, Snowmobiles. Helmets required in most states, recommended in a few.

-mr. bill

JeffOYB

Good points. Tidying up houses can help some, but a lot of risk still remains for all trip'n'slip -- esp while outside, sidewalks, in stores, etc. -- so helmets would be an ideal supplement for most ppl whenever they're moving around if ppl really cared about TBI.

And most cars still don't have full protections. But a helmet would still be a great supplement even for a fully equipped car. Couldn't hurt. And certainly isn't an inconvenience.

Yeah, sport skating requires helmets but the nags need to hammer ALL ice skaters everywhere. Bullhorns would be suitable for helping those on ponds who are a bit too spread out for easy one-on-one nagging.

mr_bill

First:

I can point to *many* studies on the effectiveness of helmets in many applications.

I am unaware of a single study on the effectiveness of house helmets, stair helmets, bathtub helmets, sidewalk helmets etc.... If there are any, at all, would you like to share cites?

Second:

As far as most cars still in use don't have full airbag protections, that's been untrue for some time. In 2006, well over half of cars sold in the US had side airbags. Since 2010, 100% have. We've crossed the threshold of where most registered vehicles have the "full complement" of front/side airbags.


Then you've stepped in to one of the most stupid controversies EVER in amateur motorsports:

Airbags and helmets.


All crash testing of the effectiveness of helmets and airbags together have been done with a 50th percentile male crash test dummy. (For anyone taller than the 50th percentile male, there may be fit issues of wearing a helmet in an unmodified passenger car.)


For a long time in amateur motorsports, a seatbelt (three point or five point depending) and helmet have been required.


A decade ago it was recommended that ONLY open face helmets be used if airbags might be deployed.

That has since been refined, with recent testing showing that open face helmets with a visor or a closed face helmet with a partially open visor are *not* recommended if airbags might be deployed.


None of the testing shows that the combination of helmets and airbags is more effective on single collision events, and suggests that the combination of helmets and airbags may often be less effective in such events, but not dangerously so. This is balanced with the number of crashes in motorsports that are multiple collision events, where a helmet and seatbelts remain effective but airbags not so much for 2nd through nth collision.

Airbags, and airbags with seatbelts, significantly reduce the severity of TBIs in an automobile accident.

There is no data available about adding a helmet to the mix. (Kind of like there is no data on the effectiveness of shower helmets.)


Finally, good luck in getting someone who won't even bother to fasten a seatbelt to wear a motorsports helmet in a car. BTW, nobody has even bothered to test the effectiveness of wearing a helmet without a seatbelt in a car.


-mr. bill

wphamilton

Traumatic brain injury was present in 10% of emergency department visits in 2013 https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-to-tbi-in-us/

There are about 480,000 ED visits annually related to bicycling. 6-20 billion miles annually on bikes in the US (depending on the source). You can do the math, how many miles are ridden for each bicycle TBI related emergency room visit.

BTW you can find a bit more direct numbers, such as 43 cases of TBI per 100,000 US population in 2012 (bicycle related) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25939135 (which would come to 135,000 total incidents).

prathmann

That's scary. Looks like I should have a bicycle-related ER visit about once every couple years but I haven't had a single one over the last 55 years. So I'm overdue for dozens of ER visits .