surgeonstone

I think everyone should have a trainer and for a trainer the Kirk is the best. I have used both and the kirk far exceeds the cyclops in quality. I use the rock and roll, which for trainers is great and allows far more comfort in saddle due to movement than a rigid model.
Having said all that I rarely use them and far prefer outdoor riding, wind, rain or snow.

As far as rollers, used them for many, many years until trainers came along and have never used them since.

canam73

I use these below my bike & trainer:

https://www.amazon.com/Multi-Purpose-.../dp/B000V9IB0G

Excelsius

That Garmin goes for $38. Thanks for the tip - it has way more ratings than the Wahoo sensor, which costs about the same. However, this is where I get stuck. I know I can get an ANT stick and hook it up to my laptop, but what do I use when I am out on the road? Don't I have to buy like an expensive bike computer that can do ANT? I was hoping I could hold off on this purchase, but from what I understand I might have to invest in a Garmin computer if I want to use the same sensor for the trainer and the road. In a weird way this almost doubles the price of the trainer!

Excelsius

Haha, there is no way I can handle all those colors. But I found a very nice alternative: https://www.amazon.com/Body-Solid-Sup...words=bike+mat.

For those saying that KK is better than CycleOps, do you guys have any other reason for that conclusion other than the leakage issues of CycleOps before 2009?

hhnngg1

Yes, you're right - if you want an ANT+ device for speed/cadence sensing that will transmit to a bike computer, you're usually talking around $80 for a non-GPS sensor+bike computer combo. For a GPS-enabled ANT+ unit, it's around $300 for an Edge, which indeed costs nearly as much as a trainer.

If you want an ANT+ powermeter, you're looking at $1200 (PT) or $2000 (quarq) - bike power data can get really expensive.

For the true cost crunched, I'm convinced this is the best solution if you actually intend to do serious regular training to improve abilitywise through the winter and onwards, meaning you're riding on it at least weekly, if not 2-3+x per week:
- KK or Cycleops Jetfluid trainer. $300ish new. I'd go KK due to reputation.
- Garmin cadence/speed sensor. $45ish new.
- Garmin ANT+ USB Receiver: $40ish new (allows your computer or laptop to receive NT+ data)
- TrainerRoad - $10/month. Yes, it's totally worth it. I know you cheapos are going to balk at the concept of spending the $120/yr, but if you actually want to TRAIN on your trainer, this is 100% the way to go. Follow one of their 'plans' and you'll be good to go. It's nearly as good as having a personalized cycling coach, mainly because the workouts are all scaled exactly to the appropriate level of ability for you based on your testing.

I'll also add that if you want a nearly guarantee formula for failing on the trainer, is to think you can just get on and ride it for some amount of time, much like you do outdoors. You'll last about 5 workouts max, and then decide that you hate the trainer due to boredom and will never want to see it again. This 'go and ride' strategy works great for riding outdoors, but for indoor riding, you really need a good plan that you're fired up about if you wish to have any chance of regular use. I've been riding mine regularly for 3 years now, with various mostly successful permutations (videos, audiobooks, Carmichael training plan, etc.) and thus far what I list above is def the best for me.

gregf83 

Just use your existing cateye on the road. If you want power on the road the least expensive options are used wired powertaps for $300-500 or used wired SRMs for 800-1200. Both are proven and reliable.

Tunnelrat81

I agree that the KK Road machine is the best fluid trainer out there. I tried a blackburn fluid trainer of some sort before spending the extra $ on the KK, and it was terrible. Loud rumble and differing resistance from session to session. It went quickly back to the store, and I ordered up the one with the best reviews around, the KK. It's a great trainer, as trainers go, but I'm going to have to disagree with carpediemracing on his dislike of the resistance rollers.

For the last two full winters, we've hosted a spin class at our house for folks to come over two times a week from time-change to time-change and try to maintain winter fitness for free. Anyway, for most of the first winter of regular twice/wk sessions, i used my KK road machine. Near he end of the season, one of the guys brought in a set of resistance rollers (the mag type unit installed on an old plastic drum 'performance bike' set of standard rollers. I had ridden rollers before and found them wanting, mostly because they were a one trick pony, good for technique but not strength training. The mag resistance rollers were different though. Because of this attention required to stay on them (like 'actually' riding a bike) the spin sessions flew by much quicker. And because of the resistance, the efforts required we certainly no easier, if anything they were harder initially while I worked at correcting my pedal stroke. When you're focused on technique as well as the workout, time for me goes by much more quickly than when riding a trainer.

I also get the feeling that a proper spin on zero-resistance rollers doesn't perfectly carry over to higher intensities. With resistance rollers, however, there's no fooling yourself. You're working insanely hard, pouring sweat, legs burning, and having to maintain a smooth pedal stroke though-out. I found that coming off of winter spin class, riding hard on the road was more natural and my pedal stroke had become not just far more smooth, but better utilized also. Each of our spin classes ended with 4-5 minutes of 30/30's one footed. And let me tell you, if there's an inefficiency or imbalance in your stroke, riding one footed on resistance rollers will IMMEDIATELY make you aware of of it, and force you to work at correcting it. After spending the first few weeks of the class on the resistance rollers, I never once could bring myself to go back to the trainer. And as the class progressed and we added the occasional higher resistance/lower cadence intervals, it was an easy click over a setting or two to increase the resistance on the mag unit to re-establish a higher effort goal.

For me there's just no comparison. As trainers go, the KK Road machine can't be beat...unless perhaps by the other KK unit that rocks (haven't tried it though). But someday when I have to return these borrowed mag-rollers, I'll be on the market quickly for my own set.

-Jeremy

canam73

The one's I linked are reversible to charcoal gray. The one's I actually own are charcoal colored on both sides but I didn't get them online, the local hardware store had them.

Excelsius

You know, I can't find a non-GPS ANT+ cadence/speed sensor+computer combo for under $150. Which one are you referring to? It seems that the cheapest option would be to have to sensor systems on the bike - ANT+ for the rear wheel and cadence and a regular wireless speed sensor on the front. This way I can still monitor my speed on the road without a bike computer. Though eventually a versatile gps computer like the the Garmin 310XT might be nice. I don't know why these bike gps computers cost as much as a laptop and several times more than regular car gps systems.

Excelsius

PS: VirtualPower is precise, but inaccurate. You can use it only for comparative power performance, but cannot compare it to absolute power output or other users because the offset of each trainer/bike setup is different from actual power output.

Campag4life

A very informative post...thanks for explaining the various options. What you write makes sense...all of it.

I wonder about the $10 buck/month fee for TrainerRoad moving forward. Do you think this fee will ultimately be supplanted by an available software that can simply be downloaded and used to get a RF signal USB sensor talking to cadence sensor and converting to power numbers/cadence on a computer screen so that pedal force can be modulated? I love the concept and it makes perfect sense to break the tedium of indoor riding with focus on the goal of becoming a stronger rider...aka quantifying improvement over time. What is provided for the monthly fee?...is it access to the software?...how is this access accomplished?...do you need an internet connection while riding?

Lastly, how big is your computer monitor in front of your bike? Do you run bike race simulations/videos in the background of the screen in addition to bar graphs what show your pedal effort?

Thanks again.

hhnngg1

There already is a free program that converts your speed to power (not sure if it's on teh fly but I think it is) - golden cheetah and there are others.


As said though, TR's power isn't simply because it does this conversion for you. In fact, I think it's one of the lesser features of TR ultimately (since the accuracy of a trainer virtualpower is probably somewhat suspect.) The workout and plan database and ease of use is what makes it worth the $10 for me. You don't even need TR if all you want is speed->power conversion since you can just find a chart/graph and tape it nearby for estimate conversions (which is what I did for a whole year prior to using TR feeling that $10/month fee was unnecessary.) I assumed that was as good as TR, but it's really the workouts, plans and cloud data storage that make all the difference.

Just sign up and try it for a good 3 weeks - there's a 100% 4-week money back guarantee, and even if you hate it after 4 months, it's a cancel anytime deal - not a lock you in plan. They've been updating TR nearly every month as well, so it's leaps and bounds better than what it was a year ago, and is getting even huger updates very soon (custom workout creator's already a go in downloadable beta.) WIth the hundreds of workouts, you pick one with TSS score and IF exactly what you're looking for (follow the plans if not sure) and you can always find a workout that hits EXACTLY what you're aiming for.


I use an old 14" laptop in front of my bike which is totally fine. I actually have Sufferfest videos (race sims) that easily dock with TR - they're very good as well even on their own without TR but I'm finding that I prefer not using videos because I really like the variety of all the nonvideo workouts, and have to really focus solely on the riding whenever I'm doing any sort of interval (even the subthreshold ones.)


I swear I'm not a trainerroad shill, but it's really good stuff, imo.

jrobe

You can buy a piece of clear plastic carpet runner at any Home Depot, etc for about $1 per foot that works perfect under a trainer and bike. I have these under 2 bikes in my home - 3ft wide and about 6 ft long for $6.

Campag4life

Thanks for your further comments...appreciate it.
I see...you are paying largely for the thought put into the workouts...no doubt created by power meters or road load data aquisition.

A last question...are the offered workouts or plans correlated to a given cyclist strength?...any correlation to CAT 1 - 5 to indentify where you stand in the cycling pyramid?

hhnngg1

That's correct. The workouts are based off professional cycling coach plans mostly and some user input.

The workouts are all indvididually tailored by power so conceivably, anyone can do pretty much any workout. However, the TSS score (training load) does vary, and a stronger cyclist will need a higher weekly TSS and likely IF (intensity factor).

They don't correlated to Cat1-5; your w/kg for your FTP is probably the best estimate of your power production relative to a Cat1-5 (completely discounting tactics of course so again HUGE grain of salt) and TR nicely calculates it for you after your FTP test. (Backdoor brag: mine seems to be 4.5 w/kg right now, but I suspect that my Cycleops Fluid2 trainer is giving readings 40-50 watts higher than reality, since the concept of me holding 300+ watts steadily for an hour seems a bit of a stretch. Hence the caveats about treating your virtualpower as an accurate reading - it's very precise/reproducible, but not sure how accurate.)

This chart is by Coggan, the originator of TSS scores etc:
https://www.cyclingtips.com.au/2009/0...re-these-guys/
Use the "FT" column to compare vs your calculated FTP for the most reliable result since longer tests tend to be a better estimate than 1-5 minute tests.

Campag4life

Good stuff...thanks again.

handz98

Yes it is.

DaveWC

I agree. Everyone discusses rollers solely from the pov of improving riding technique and ignores their abilities as a trainer. I guarantee if you ride a set of rollers with resistance for an hour, and ride them hard like you would a trainer, there will be no comparison to the workout you get on a trainer.

gregf83 

TSS and IF are also normalized so for a given intensity the scores will be the same regardless of how strong a rider you are.

hhnngg1

Yes but a cat2 rider may need 500 tss to improve whereas a beginner car5 may fo fine with 300. Even normalized to ability

simonaway427

To add about TrainerRoad...

The virtual power is relative, not absolute...which is ok as long as you keep the variables constant - meaning my tire is 120psi and my trainer is set up the same every time (tension on the resistance unit on the tire).

Here's the thing about Trainer Road - You have something telling you to maintain a quantifiable level of effort, instead of perceived level of effort. For example, without Trainer Road, a video will tell you to maintain a perceived 8 out of 10 effort for a given period. Who's to say you won't slack off? Who's to say you aren't REALLY hitting 8 / 10. What does 8 / 10 mean anyway??

Well, Trainer Road does. After signing up, you perform the 20 min FTP test. The software then automatically tailors all of the workouts in their database based on the results of what you just did on that 20 min test. From now on....when you do a work out, all you need to worry about is keeping the "bar in the green". If you go too soft - bar turns RED. If you go too hard - bar turns RED. Its perfect - now you have a tangible level of effort to sustain.

If you have Sufferfest videos, you can sync them to Trainer Road. So now, when the gun goes off for that 3rd interval during A Very Dark Place, you actually have a numerical target to achieve and maintain, and it will tell you when you're going too slow or too fast.

For me, $10 is a bargain. Considering a CX race costs $30 to register...45 mins long, plus gas, plus a hotel if its a double header - another bonus is you can "suspend" your account during the summer when your trainer is collecting dust - then reactivate your account in the winter without loosing your stats and data.

Drag

This one should work. Less than $20 at your local Home Depot. No experience with it though. I just use a small area rug.

Drag

TrainerRoad sounds like the bees knees. I'm gonna have to try that out. I'll order the USB ANT+ stick on my next Amazon order.

fstshrk

I used a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine for a long time. Last week I purchased a set of Inside Ride E-Motion rollers. Without a doubt even at the lowest resistance setting, the rollers are a much much better workout.
I had never tried rollers before and the first 5 minutes were very sketchy (riding on ice) and I am still riding with my running shoes since I don't feel secure enough yet. Having said this, it is pretty damn amazing. Same sufferfest video on rollers is 2x harder than the kurt kinetic since you have to balance the bike the whole time. $850 is expensive, but I believe it is worth it. The construction quality is also impeccable (and made in USA too).

fstshrk

+1 on this. I made this discovery last week.