Article on Bicycling.com: Perhaps we are taking this strava thing too far
10-21-13, 12:11 PM
#251
Portland Fred
Good thing I don't do Strava. Every day as I commute, I break the speed limit by at least 10mph including in the dark and the wet. On a good day, that differential can exceed 20mph. If I received idiotic emails from Strava, it might provoke me into riding faster than I should. No telling what it would do for other non Strava users who like to bomb down hills.
10-21-13, 12:14 PM
#252
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I am pretty sure the former does not imply the latter. Your use of "breakneck" as an adjective undermines your otherwise high minded argument. What you have is a bunch of disconnected items you support attempting to be tied together by using an analogy you state up front is not applicable. This is a politician's argument. Try again.
Also, I don't think we have determined whether a "Strava for cars" would be legal or not. It doesn't exist, never has, so we don't really get to assume this as a point of fact, no?
Also, I don't think we have determined whether a "Strava for cars" would be legal or not. It doesn't exist, never has, so we don't really get to assume this as a point of fact, no?
As far as word parsing goes, I figured breakneck was a reasonable term given the outcome of the two cyclists discussed in the article being discussed. I can live with the idea that you think it undermines my argument. Your earlier reference to The Amazing Race made me think I was arguing with my teen. The idea that Strava for Cars could be comparable to a highly produced/directed tv show where multitudes of cameras are following one or two dozen people through a city that has has no doubt been warned that filming will occur, permits have been approved & attained etc. is pretty funny. You do realize that these reality "stars" don't race through town with a GoPro attached to their heads right? Great analogy though... it really stands up.
10-21-13, 12:18 PM
#253
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Sure, but the analogy is only as strong as it's weakest fit. And we most certainly enact safety laws with regard to various vehicles. Trucks are given many more restrictions (i.e. lane use and highway speed being two of the better know). Motorcycles are afforded more freedoms (no seatbelts, no crush zones, the ability to lane split in several states). Bicycles are generally afforded even more freedoms.
So, sure, I can see the similarities. But if you are arguing that "if in this case, then in the other", the argument is only as strong as its weakest comparison. I am telling you how the comparison is weak. To convince me of your argument, you'll have to turn me on the relevance of these weaknesses, not the relevance of the strengths.
So, sure, I can see the similarities. But if you are arguing that "if in this case, then in the other", the argument is only as strong as its weakest comparison. I am telling you how the comparison is weak. To convince me of your argument, you'll have to turn me on the relevance of these weaknesses, not the relevance of the strengths.
Anyhow, back to comparisons: So a ski resort builds a half pipe ENCOURAGING radical launches. One's unlucky day results in a broken neck. Who's at fault?
10-21-13, 12:22 PM
#254
Senior Member
Deflection much?
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10-21-13, 12:24 PM
#255
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10-21-13, 12:26 PM
#256
Senior Member
In any case, Strava publishes and rank orders words on the internet (and, yes, sends, some words out to people via email). How does this compare with building and maintaining a half pipe?
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
10-21-13, 12:30 PM
#258
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Usually a release is signed. If the half pipe is in keeping with normal half pipes, guy-who-breaks neck is at fault. If the half pipe were not in keeping with normal half pipe construction, then maybe the the ski resort.
In any case, Strava publishes and rank orders words on the internet (and, yes, sends, some words out to people via email). How does this compare with building and maintaining a half pipe?
In any case, Strava publishes and rank orders words on the internet (and, yes, sends, some words out to people via email). How does this compare with building and maintaining a half pipe?
Last edited by crank_addict; 10-21-13 at 12:38 PM.
10-21-13, 12:32 PM
#259
Senior Member
But these are your words, yes?
Here is the full quote:
You are arguing the analogy is relevant because [if] "we enact safety laws... regardless of vehicle type..." (we don't, as I have illustrated) "...[w]e see the folly of a Strava for cars..." (the analogy) "...and given the similar potential for harm..." [then] "...we can see a reasonable ground for viewing Strava for bikes in a similar light." (presumably banning or severely restricting the service).
What am I missing here regarding "intent" of your statement?
Here is the full quote:
Analogies work the other way. They are useful because of their similarities, not their differences. The similarity (bikes and cars can kill others when operated dangerously) is sufficient to make the comparison. We can all see the differences, but that single similarity is critical. We enact safety laws to reduce that danger, regardless of vehicle type. We see the folly of a Strava for cars, and given the similar potential for harm, we can see a reasonable ground for viewing Strava for bikes in a similar light.
What am I missing here regarding "intent" of your statement?
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 10-21-13 at 12:36 PM.
10-21-13, 12:33 PM
#260
Senior Member
Good, we are talking about pot and kettles now.
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
10-21-13, 12:34 PM
#261
Senior Member
10-21-13, 12:35 PM
#262
Senior Member
I have no clue what these things are...
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
10-21-13, 12:37 PM
#263
Senior Member
But these are your words, yes?
Here is the full quote:
You are arguing the analogy is relevant because [if] "we enact safety laws... regardless of vehicle type" (we don't, as I have illustrated). "We see the folly of a Strava for cars..." (the analogy) "...and given the similar potential for harm..." [then] "...we can see a reasonable ground for viewing Strava for bikes in a similar light." (presumably banning or severely restricting the service).
What am I missing here regarding "intent" of your statement?
Here is the full quote:
You are arguing the analogy is relevant because [if] "we enact safety laws... regardless of vehicle type" (we don't, as I have illustrated). "We see the folly of a Strava for cars..." (the analogy) "...and given the similar potential for harm..." [then] "...we can see a reasonable ground for viewing Strava for bikes in a similar light." (presumably banning or severely restricting the service).
What am I missing here regarding "intent" of your statement?
Read my words. Trust that they are all I am saying and no more. I have no hidden agenda.
When I say "We enact safety laws to reduce that danger, regardless of vehicle type" I don't mean we enact identical safety laws. If I had meant that I would have said it. The laws are clearly different for different vehicle types, but we enact laws anyway.
10-21-13, 12:40 PM
#264
Senior Member
So what is the point of arguing that "Strava for cars" is equivalent to Strava? Presumably "Strava for cars" is a bad thing in your world, right? Are you for, I dunno, shaming Strava? Defining Strava as morally bad? Presumably if Strava is morally bad, there aughta be something that can be dun bout that, am I right?
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
10-21-13, 12:45 PM
#265
Senior Member
I don't think Strava for cars would be tolerated. It would be interesting to find out. I haven't tried to shame Strava, or define Stava as "bad". You can re-read my posts see what I've actually said. Go ahead, it will be fun for you.
10-21-13, 12:47 PM
#266
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No release form signed to play in a half pipe. The other is just a higher challenge marked ski run where hundreds every year are injured. A legendary attraction at the Jackson Hole ski resort. LOL
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corbet%27s_Couloir
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corbet%27s_Couloir
Last edited by crank_addict; 10-21-13 at 12:54 PM.
10-21-13, 12:49 PM
#267
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So what is the point of arguing that "Strava for cars" is equivalent to Strava? Presumably "Strava for cars" is a bad thing in your world, right? Are you for, I dunno, shaming Strava? Defining Strava as morally bad? Presumably if Strava is morally bad, there aughta be something that can be dun bout that, am I right?
...the downhill runs are an individual beast, unlike the others. It's not often that some large hill in a populated are has a speed limit of 50+ mph.
Bla, bla, bla...I guess I could on and on...
Either way, Strava sets the stage for these runs. To say the have zero part in these accidents is false.
10-21-13, 12:53 PM
#268
Senior Member
okay.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
10-21-13, 12:56 PM
#269
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I just checked some of the segments in my area and on some of the city streets the KOM are 30mph. How can you do that in the city with cars and on flat ground? Unless it's done in a paceline in the middle of the night, I call bull****. Or people are just insane and blowing through lights and drafting off of cars.
10-21-13, 12:57 PM
#270
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Except the resort has (presumably) taken effort to make sure the condition of the facility is appropriate and to warn people of the dangers they assume in using it. (The road-builders, who are not Strava, have also (presumably) taken effort to make sure the condition of the facility is appropriate and to warn people of the dangers (via speed limit signs/etc).)
Last edited by njkayaker; 10-21-13 at 01:11 PM.
10-21-13, 12:58 PM
#271
Senior Member
okay.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
10-21-13, 12:59 PM
#272
Senior Member
the lady doth protest too much, methinks.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 10-21-13 at 01:03 PM.
10-21-13, 01:15 PM
#273
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well only by degree is it untrue, speeding on a bicycle maybe, MAYBE 5 mph over the speed limit. Everyone in a car or on an mc goes over that. Sorry but with few exceptions, bicycles just are not that fast. (obviously steep descents are a source of the highest speeds). I'll reword in that bicycles rarely exceed the speed limit MEANINGFULLY. If by some chance they do go 35 mph in a 20mph zone than they should be ticketed as laws are already on the books for this.
10-21-13, 01:21 PM
#274
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Not that I am really in this argument, but my personal beliefs are:
Strava has no culpability, be it legal or moral, in morons being morons. And I have never even implied that they did.
Both of the people in the article acted recklessly, based upon their own choices.
I gave the car examples because, in my mind, the hyper mileage hypothetical would demonstrate the same thing: information (a website) that someone uses to perform a stupid action is not culpable for the stupid action.
However, Brian, I do believe you argue inconsistently:
The car speeding website can't be compared, because everyone could speed on every segment, so it is universally not safe.
The car mileage website can't be compared, because it is only hypothetical. But wait, the car speeding was hypothetical too, but not dismissed on the grounds it was hypothetical.
Last I checked, hypothetical analogies were a common logic tool to evaluate premises. The benefit of them is that they are, in fact, non-existent, and hypothetical.
Strava has no culpability, be it legal or moral, in morons being morons. And I have never even implied that they did.
Both of the people in the article acted recklessly, based upon their own choices.
I gave the car examples because, in my mind, the hyper mileage hypothetical would demonstrate the same thing: information (a website) that someone uses to perform a stupid action is not culpable for the stupid action.
However, Brian, I do believe you argue inconsistently:
The car speeding website can't be compared, because everyone could speed on every segment, so it is universally not safe.
The car mileage website can't be compared, because it is only hypothetical. But wait, the car speeding was hypothetical too, but not dismissed on the grounds it was hypothetical.
Last I checked, hypothetical analogies were a common logic tool to evaluate premises. The benefit of them is that they are, in fact, non-existent, and hypothetical.
10-21-13, 01:21 PM
#275
Portland Fred
You don't have to watch long at all to see people trying to do things that are clearly outside their skill level and you'll see plenty of bad crashes -- particularly younger people who have more balls than brains.
On the signed release thing, I thought the normal deal was that they have signage indicating that purchasing a ticket constituted acceptance of terms. I know a lawyer who actually did try to sue on behalf of someone who was seriously injured (it didn't work).