Straight Gauge or Double-Butted Spokes?
04-11-19, 05:53 PM
#26
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From the DT Swiss website. It reflects my experience in the shop.
"
Is there any significant loss in strength between a J-bend or a straight-pull spoke in real life?
"
Is there any significant loss in strength between a J-bend or a straight-pull spoke in real life?J-bends spokes tend to suffer more breakage issues due to poor build quality and low spoke tension. Also, some hubs have spokes holes too large, which causes poor fit of the elbow. Most of the time you can chalk up premature J-bend spoke breakage to corners being cut in the wheel-building process. For example: it's always surprising to me to see a shop build wheels without the use of a spoke tensiometer. To me, that's like trying to build a house without a tape measure!."
Another tidbit of information is the forming of the butted spoke compacts the middle section of the spoke, pushing the grain together.
My body weight is 230 and I only use straight gauge spokes. Have zero issues until I bend a rim and then they start popping. Replace the rim and all is good again. Have at least 60,000 miles on my bikes and only a bent rim has caused spoke breakage with the exception of Wheelsmith spokes. They do not fit tight enough in the hub holes and break very easily.
Another tidbit of information is the forming of the butted spoke compacts the middle section of the spoke, pushing the grain together.
My body weight is 230 and I only use straight gauge spokes. Have zero issues until I bend a rim and then they start popping. Replace the rim and all is good again. Have at least 60,000 miles on my bikes and only a bent rim has caused spoke breakage with the exception of Wheelsmith spokes. They do not fit tight enough in the hub holes and break very easily.
04-13-19, 08:50 AM
#28
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That “tidbit” has been out there for a while and it has been very wrong. Metals can’t be compressed. The act of drawing the spoke might change the grain structure but it doesn’t “push the grains together”. There is no void between grains. The implication of pushing the grain together is that the density of the metal is increased. That is impossible.
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Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
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04-14-19, 01:58 AM
#29
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The other things to do when you are lacing or replacing spokes is to set the outside J bends with a small hammer after applying some tension, and to stress relieve the spoke late in the tensioning process, this helps seat the spoke head and stops flexing at the bend.
04-14-19, 10:55 AM
#31
Banned
And adding to minutiae, in the Rohloff service handbook , they suggest filing off
The flashing left by the spoke head forming machine, (back side of the head)
so as to not have it make an impression in the hub flange start creating a stress riser,
and stress risers in aluminum has been found to grow into a crack.. ..
(not just in 1 brand , or only hubs, but generally )
The flashing left by the spoke head forming machine, (back side of the head)
so as to not have it make an impression in the hub flange start creating a stress riser,
and stress risers in aluminum has been found to grow into a crack.. ..
(not just in 1 brand , or only hubs, but generally )
04-14-19, 11:41 PM
#32
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Fietsbob,
Makes sense. Will do when I relace the wheel. I think I'm gonna' use the SAPIM "STRONG" single-butted spokes with the 2.3mm hub-end diameter. It should fill the holes better and have less movement and stress at the J-bend. Again, thanks to all for your input.
Jon
Makes sense. Will do when I relace the wheel. I think I'm gonna' use the SAPIM "STRONG" single-butted spokes with the 2.3mm hub-end diameter. It should fill the holes better and have less movement and stress at the J-bend. Again, thanks to all for your input.
Jon
04-15-19, 05:54 AM
#33
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Fietsbob,
Makes sense. Will do when I relace the wheel. I think I'm gonna' use the SAPIM "STRONG" single-butted spokes with the 2.3mm hub-end diameter. It should fill the holes better and have less movement and stress at the J-bend. Again, thanks to all for your input.
Jon
Makes sense. Will do when I relace the wheel. I think I'm gonna' use the SAPIM "STRONG" single-butted spokes with the 2.3mm hub-end diameter. It should fill the holes better and have less movement and stress at the J-bend. Again, thanks to all for your input.
Jon
You need to be careful with the Sapim Strongs, I've used them for a full wheel build and they were a PITA on the NDS, I couldn't get the DS tight enough to keep the NDS tight enough to stop unscrewing without using wick in loctite 290. Once they were loctited though they were good, didn't budge. But ideally you'd use the Strongs on the DS and a thinner spoke on the NDS.
04-15-19, 06:08 AM
#34
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And adding to minutiae, in the Rohloff service handbook , they suggest filing off
The flashing left by the spoke head forming machine, (back side of the head)
so as to not have it make an impression in the hub flange start creating a stress riser,
and stress risers in aluminum has been found to grow into a crack.. ..
(not just in 1 brand , or only hubs, but generally )
The flashing left by the spoke head forming machine, (back side of the head)
so as to not have it make an impression in the hub flange start creating a stress riser,
and stress risers in aluminum has been found to grow into a crack.. ..
(not just in 1 brand , or only hubs, but generally )
It's strange, but mass produced hubs can sometimes be stronger than bespoke ones.
04-15-19, 07:42 AM
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Hi Jon,
You need to be careful with the Sapim Strongs, I've used them for a full wheel build and they were a PITA on the NDS, I couldn't get the DS tight enough to keep the NDS tight enough to stop unscrewing without using wick in loctite 290. Once they were loctited though they were good, didn't budge. But ideally you'd use the Strongs on the DS and a thinner spoke on the NDS.
You need to be careful with the Sapim Strongs, I've used them for a full wheel build and they were a PITA on the NDS, I couldn't get the DS tight enough to keep the NDS tight enough to stop unscrewing without using wick in loctite 290. Once they were loctited though they were good, didn't budge. But ideally you'd use the Strongs on the DS and a thinner spoke on the NDS.
G'day Mate.
Jon
04-15-19, 10:08 AM
#36
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04-16-19, 01:46 PM
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A lot of good advice above, especially using different spoke diameters on the DS vs NDS. I'm surprised that more people don't do this since it addresses a fundamental problem with rear wheels. If you don't want to spend money on a spoke tensiometer, try out the iPhone app "Tensioner". It's cheap and it works, though it does take a bit of time to figure out the proper technique for getting a tone (read the instructions very carefully). Also won't work if you're in a noisy room...even the refrigerator interferes with it. I've built wheels without a tension measuring device in the past but wouldn't again with this so easily available.
04-17-19, 08:59 AM
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Again,
Thanks to all for your input and helpful advice. I'll keep you posted.
Jon
Thanks to all for your input and helpful advice. I'll keep you posted.
Jon
04-17-19, 06:45 PM
#39
Senior Member
From DT Swiss website: "The forging process allows the metal to be compressed into a denser package and this strengthens the metal by aligning the grain, giving rise to a part with improved strength characteristics."
DT forges their DB spokes, they do not draw them out. Perhaps they are incorrect in saying the process compresses the metal into a denser package?
DT forges their DB spokes, they do not draw them out. Perhaps they are incorrect in saying the process compresses the metal into a denser package?
04-18-19, 08:23 AM
#40
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From DT Swiss website: "The forging process allows the metal to be compressed into a denser package and this strengthens the metal by aligning the grain, giving rise to a part with improved strength characteristics."
DT forges their DB spokes, they do not draw them out. Perhaps they are incorrect in saying the process compresses the metal into a denser package?
DT forges their DB spokes, they do not draw them out. Perhaps they are incorrect in saying the process compresses the metal into a denser package?
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Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
