markk900

Fading!? You want fading have a look at this:



Not only is the black primer glossier and in better shape that the colour coat (which is easily removable with a fingernail), what little there is has faded differently depending on where on the bike it is: fork is almost all black and rust; down tube is mostly painted still but where there was a reflective sticker is far more blue than where it faded; front fender is half black and half chalky faded blue....

But it is an attention getter that way! Like @Salubrious, I have repo decals that are close but not identical (most in terms of size rather than style) so I am holding off until I can't stand it anymore to consider a repaint.

Velocivixen

@markk900- so the blue has totally come off the fork, leaving black primer? Wow. That's some primer! The original blue where the sticker was is very pretty though.

I wont gripe ripe about fading then.

I won't say who (yet), but a forum member is sending me some nice handlebars as well as a frame pump! I'm so excited and I will care for this handlebars so the chrome will remain intact. They'll look great!

BGBeck

Mark is the black really primer? You sure somebody didn't paint a black bike blue?

markk900

@BGBeck: yes - there was a bit of a discussion about this when I first acquired the bike (https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...-pictures.html), but mostly I know because the decals are original and on the blue itself. I think it was @rhm that said some of the colours in the day were quite fragile.....

When I first got the bike it was grimy so I thought it was black or black with rattle can blue on it....after a lot of cleaning I determined it was indeed blue originally (and found some nice blue under the fender clamp and other protected areas). I did find a catalog that showed that while the stock colour was black you could order this particular blue in 1949-50.

desconhecido 

I have a 56 Raleigh Sports in grand, gross, dirty, and grimy condition that is the burgundy color that was then available. Sure looks to me like it's the original color and decals, but in places, it looks like a real nice black paint finish underneath. Not a primer, but a proper black paint job. My suspicion is that a lot of the colored frames were probably painted black right after construction and given the top color coat only shortly prior to build. Color paints were a high cost option, according to the old catalogs.

Velocivixen

Interesting thought about a black primer beneath final paint color. The femders on my Phillips are faded, but down the center are black. It's not dirt either. Maybe it's a primer.

markk900

@desconhecido: That's my thought as well - the black "primer" on mine is as beautiful as many of the lovely machines we see restored on these threads....and probably why the flamboyant colours do not adhere well - I have never seen primer that is glossy like this! And it makes sense to build and paint all the frames at once, and then overpaint, line and decal them after the special order comes in.
@Velocivixen: If the black part is very well defined I would think it might have been intentionally painted that way, but if its more "exposed" looking perhaps it is the undercoat (I am now hesitating to call it "primer"). Can you take a closeup?

nlerner

For Raleighs from the 1940s and 50s, at least, that black undercoat is far hardier than whatever finish coat was applied.

Velocivixen

@markk900 - here are photos of the top of the rear fender - starting from above the rear "badge" that is on the fender. It's not on the front fender and only a few random spots on the bike - the head tube & down tube. I have scrubbed this bike with 0000 steel wool, 0000 bronze wool, citrus degreaser, simple green & motor oil! It's as clean as it's gonna get & I waxed it.



What do you think. It looks like something that is under the red paint vs something that is on​ the red paint. Thoughts?

markk900

Sure looks like undercoat to me....(and I love the Phillips decal on the fender!).

Velocivixen

Thanks. It's actually not a "decal" in the way I usually think of - like a sticker. It's actually a thin but solid "badge" like the head badge. I cleaned under the fenders when I removed them from the bike and I don't recall seeing rivets, so not sure how it's adhering, but it's on there good. Only thing underneath were 2 screws with nuts that hold the fender stays on.

I sort of wonder how this bike was stored in the barn. I have my suspicions. The left side of the bike is significantly less faded than the rest, although the fork and down tube are evenly faced both sides. The chain stay on both sides as well as the bb cluster (had THICK grime on it- required actually chipping it off) are much more red/maroon than the faded areas of the bike. The fender under the crown fork is the color red you'd see on a Pink Lady apple - bright red. The chain guard & fenders along with the top tube look like that sort of dull dried blood (sorry for the gory reference) color - sort of brownish. I wonder if the bike was leaning on a wall on its left side and the fading is from sun damage. There's really no rust to speak of, so it was most definitely stored indoors. I imagine years of sun on the paint would/could fade it. Anyway, that's what I'm thinking.

wahoonc

No pictures of the floral wire contraption...

I just use a piece and bend it into a shape that suits, put a blob of putty on the end, stick the nut in it then use that to hold the nut while I turn the screw from the outside to get it started.


Aaron

jyl

I had the pleasure of riding this bike a little bit, at Velocult yesterday evening. It was really nice - smooth, quiet, tracked and shifted well, felt and handled much lighter than its scale weight, the new front wheel is nice and tight, and the bike is Chombi-level clean. I'm starting to scan CL for old three speeds . . . Thanks VV!

CV-6 

Gee. I might actually be able to shed some light on this. Your Humber (and Velocivixen's Phillips) is essentially a Raleigh, which you probably knew. Raleigh's paint process at the time was to dip the frame in a black "enamel" before painting. I put enamel in quotes because that is probably the wrong term. But you get the idea. My 1946 Raleigh Lenton Sports has lost most of its topcoat and shows the black undercoating.

Velocivixen

Great information about this enamel dipping. What is your source? I'd like to research it a bit.

What makes you think my Phillips is a "Raleigh"? The conglomerate, called TI bought Raleigh (largest bike manufacturer in England), and it also bought Phillips (2nd largest bike manufacturer), Triumph, Robin Hood, Hercules, and maybe others in 1960. Raleigh then began producing those other brands, mostly as their "B" level brands. My particular is a Phillips and is distinctly different, in significant ways, from a Raleigh. I do believe they shared some "english 3-speed" traits,though, like the front hub setup (although Phillips did use lock nuts, while raleigh hubs didn't).

@jyl - any time! And thanks for the compliment.

markk900

I saw that in the "How they make a Raleigh" film on youtube (aside: anyone else notice the guy dipping the frames a) used his bare hand, and b) doesn't see to worry about getting an even coat on the tube where he is holding the frame?), but the film does not describe how the bike gets from that "enameling" stage to finish coat. The Humber catalog lists my bike as coming in black, but I found other evidence that says you could order special colours at about this time.

It is to me very interesting to see how well many of the finishes of British bikes withstand time, however in this area (assuming your Lenton topcoat looks somewhat like mine) they really seem to have fallen down. I also notice that @Velocivixen's Phillps seems to have retained its colour better than mine could ever hope to....

markk900

See my previous post....check out the video on youtube.


The 1950 parts catalog shows that by then Raleigh was "badge engineering" Raleigh, Humber, Robin Hood, Rudge. I think the second wave started as you said in 1960, after Raleigh merges with TI and the rest of the brands come into the same family.

Velocivixen

@markk900- thanks for the video reference. I just watched it and found it fascinating. So bummer that Raleigh had a hand in my bike. I thought that my 1955 Phillips was "pre-Raleigh". You know, the threading is standard and the mudguard eyelets are in the "non-Raleigh" position. Oh well.

CV-6 

The source is the film mentioned by markk900. And my bad on the Phillips. Phillips did not become a part of Raleigh until 1960. I once again engaged mouth before checking my memory. But I believe the finishing techniques would likely be the similar. I see now that markk900 indicates Raleigh was badge engineering in 1950. So I guess I was sort of right.

I noticed the hand on the seat tube also and wondered the same thing. In that instance, the enameling is the final coat as far as I can tell. At least there is no mention of a topcoat. My Lenton is below. Survivability of the top coat is a function of many things. My Lenton was ridden extensively by the PO on tours throughout the US. I believe that the particular top coat on my Lenton was known for not being very robust under use. You can see the black enameling on my frame.

Lenton Sports 002 by CV6Enterprises, on Flickr

Velocivixen

@CV-6 - I think we both learned something. I watched the Raleigh video and it was very interesting. Well, at least now we know that these bikes most likely got a "base coat" of black to help withstand time, and I guess it worked, right? Your Lenton is lovely, and I don't think I've seen it. The original blue looks to be very rich looking (the shade). The lug cutouts look nice, as do those "dimpled" or "thimble" fork crown indentations. What tires are you running? Do you like them?

I'm not exactly sure what is meant by "badge engineering" by Raleigh. Does that mean that Raleigh's production standards were being applied by other English makers or ??? I'd like to hear more about that.

Ed.

I confess I should have followed this more closely. Very nice work.

Back in the long-ago days, I did the 'official' Raleigh how-to-fix SA hubs films. They were on super 8 cassettes (I think there was another term rather than cassettes, but I don't recollect.). I also don't recollect there being anything specific about ensuring the two-start thread was started in the same place, but it was a long time ago, and I do remember there was 'some' discussion about it. I've only once since come across a two-start thread, and that was for shotg u n chokes.

Lee Valley sells a great de-rusting product, much better than naval jelly. www.leevalley.com

I clean and lube chains in an ultrasonic. To lube I put the chain in a ziplock freezer bag, semi filled with my lubricant of choice, seal it up and set it in the ultrasonic, filled with water. Every ultrasonic I've ever used has a heater, and I figure between heating things up, and the ultrasonic action, the lube is going to get into all the nooks and crannies.

Speaking of ultrasonics - I've a non-functioning Branson. Since there are two US generators (or whatever they're called) and only one big-ass transistor, I figure that's the likely suspect. If anybody wants it, shoot me a PM.

Nick, at www.threespeedhub.com (or something close to that) is a good source of arcane stuff. I got the grips for my RRA from him. A good guy.

Interesting discussion about wheels. I've not built a wheel in years, but I've built quite a few. I always figured the 32-40 was a bit of over-British engineering (more weight on the back wheel). What I've never seen, and I'd be curious to know if anyone else has seen, was 36-40. My Torpado had a 40-spoke back wheel, which I still have, but the bike now has a 36-hole as I couldn't then find a 40-hole tubular rim.

Velocivixen

@Ed. - That's a great idea about lubricant & chain in a bag in the ultrasonic cleaner. Cool.

Question for All: So I've ordered a CR18 40 hole rim that I'll pick up likely on Friday. So...I had planned, for the sake of keeping the bike unusual/interesting/historically "correct", to keep the spoke cross 3 cross on the left side and 4 cross on the right side. That is how it is currently. Now I know we've already discussed why we think Raleigh did that, and it's very interesting. My question is, if you were building a rear wheel to replace what's currently on there would you keep the "cross" as is (3 on left; 4 on right) or do 3 cross on both sides. I do understand that the 4x on the drive side is perhaps "overkill", but I'm trying to keep it "correct". I do know that if I really wanted to keep it correct I'd source new Dunlop chrome rims, etc. So, technically, I'm not keeping it original, but I'm trying to keep the "unusualness" of it a being a mid 1950's English 3-speed. I'm heavily leaning to keeping it the original lacing, but if you folks have different opinions, let me have 'em.

As an aside, these spokes aren't laced like the usual for a 3 cross (over 2 & under the 3rd); the spoke goes, over one, over two, over three & into rim hole. My wheel builder said that is a Dutch style of wheel building. I'm not keeping that aspect. On my front wheel, where I did a 3 cross, I did over, over, under.

CV-6 

Thanks for the kind remarks on the Lenton. I have shared it in other threads. Funny you call it blue and I see green. At the moment it is disassembled as it needed a thorough mechanical overhaul when I got it. It had been well maintained but had sat for probably 40 years or so in A-1 Bicycle here in St Louis. Trying to decide to refinish or leave it. I really hate the idea of losing the markings. No more on that as I don't want to hijack your thread on your lovely Phillips.

Badge engineering. Think rebadging as in Simplex and Spidel or Campagnolo and Edco. A real good example is all the cookie cutter cars in the US.

jyl

I think you concluded that 3X on left, 4X on right allows same length spokes on both sides? I would definitely keep the 3X, 4X in that event. Even if you don't achieve spoke interchangeability, I'd still keep it, to be original. I'd interweave the spokes if possible. And maybe take some polishing compound to the rim, to shine it up to look more like a chrome steel rim.

desconhecido 

Not all Raleigh 3-speeds have front hubs that are lock nut free. The 51 Sports and the 56 Sports both have lock nuts, the 79 is lock nut free. On my desk I have a trashed 32 hole front hub with R nuts and an RI logo that doesn't have any and I think the RI logo would indicate pre-TI, so that innovation probably came about in the late 50s. I'm guessing on a small sample, of course.