Heathpack 

Well, I don't know that anyone can conclude that masters or women dope more than non-masters men in cycling, because none of us know what the demographics are of people being tested. If women and masters are tested more frequently than non-master's men, of course there will be more positive tests among these groups. But you can't conclude who dopes the most without knowing who is tested.


As far as women being more tempted to dope because they are trying to train with men: maybe. Its definitely true that most organized bike racing is centered around men and if you want access to things like casual chatter about racing wheels or strategy or even being aware some poorly advertised races are taking place, your best bet is to ride with people who race. Who are mostly men. Which therefore automatically excludes most women.


And beyond that, I was told things like "just keep coming out, you'll be able to hang" until I realized that the physiologic gap between my 51 year old female self and a bunch of 40 year old cat 2 and 3 guys is huge. The impression I was given (before I knew better) was that I was doing things wrong or just not trying hard enough. Nope. I'm doing it right. But I could see if you didn't have self confidence, you could think you were doing it wrong. Doping would remedy that. So maybe that's an incentive for women to dope.


I've also watched track races with an experienced male friend who told me how the women were racing terribly- they weren't being aggressive enough and their racing was boring. Even though I realize now that their fields were very different- women's fields being much smaller and with much more mixed skills and fitness levels. So maybe the women were doing it right for their fields, I honestly don't know. But the message is there, subtly, quite often- don't race like a woman, race like a man. Again, maybe that's an incentive to dope.


However, it doesn't really matter. We are all adults and being a minority in a sport or swayed by men into thinking you should be more like them- you still have to have some integrity and make the right decisions. Maybe easier for me because I am well-coached and there's a lot of confidence from that. But if women just caved into what men want of them all the time, the world would be a mess. I get a little exasperated by women who imply men have set their agenda and therefore they were powerless to do anything but follow. Not entirely true. You caved. Maybe it made sense to cave, it wasn't worth the consequences of not caving. But when women just cave, it makes it way harder for women who don't. Because we're *****es. Or "difficult". Or "high maintenance".


And Tammy Thomas? I'm not that comfortable with her claims of sexual harassment- she states in the USA Today article that the sexual relationship with her coach was consensual, only by virtue of the fact that he "held the power to advance her dream". So she had a sexual relationship with the guy because she thought it might help her racing? You could read that as she was using him. She seems to be full of excuses as to why all that doping was someone's fault other than hers. Reading more about her, it sounds like after she was pushed out of cycling but before being a convicted felon, she won some bodybuilding championships while still doping. Oy. I'm not really sure this is such a sympathetic character, she seemed to have some serious issues with understanding right from wrong.

Siu Blue Wind

Just a reminder:

We do have a politics and religious section and if you guys want to talk on that topic, then by all means please visit that area.

Also, when a moderator asks that actions cease, I would appreciate if their requests are respected. Some of the content here is against the forum guidelines and warrant infractions. But because the moderation team will ease up and maybe let little things slide sometimes, they may turn their cheek. Many times they are taken advantage of.

That doesn't sit well with me. Taking someone's niceness for granted is not very cool and if that starts to happen, I will ask my team to be sure to follow protocol.

So please, try to respect not only the forum rules, but the moderators. They work hard to keep this place nice for you and all they are asking is to follow the rules.

Thank you.


Oh.. and just to let you know, I was not summoned here by anyone. I saw this myself and decided that if a moderator has to ask twice, that means I need to find out why he's doing that.

furiousferret

Competition wise, the big difference between men and women's racing is a much smaller pool size. That makes for a more tight knit and passionate group; a group that is also much closer to being a state, national, worlds champ, or an Olympian. I've even heard of races being 'fixed' to help out new racers where the riders could easily drop someone but they keep them in the group to help them out; no way that happens in mens racing.

Additionally, since it is a smaller size I can see competitive women driven towards the sport.

....or it just could have to do with fixed number of tests per race so women as a percentage get tested more.

Enthalpic

I know many male racers and only two have been tested.

I only know a few females athletes and I know two who have been tested; one of them several times.

Radish_legs

I've heard that women Racers can be much less supportive to one another. This was related to me by a friend who has a female friend who quit racing because of this. She was new to the sport and very talented but burned out pretty quick.

himespau 

Is the women's increased testing related to the smaller field size? At race X they decide to test 10 males (out of 150) and 5 females (out of 30) so there is just a increased probability of getting tested?

Heathpack 

This has not been my experience at all. Quite the opposite in fact.

Doge

Nobody said that. What was said, based purely on the USAC stats is they get popped more.
The demographics from gender and age are published for each race.

USAC also shows the pyramid on who is tested.
You can link to it, but testing goes like this:
Juniors - no.
Pros - a lot.
Masters not as much.

Doge

On the same team it happens. "Fixed" is not the correct word when a team is involved. It is how you get more members on the team to Cat 1 by letting them beat the other Cat 1s.

Ygduf

consider the person you're responding to...

Radish_legs

Yes the most despised person on the entire board.

furiousferret

A lot of us have been there, its just part of being new to the sport and this board.

If you're still around in 3 years, you'll understand.

As part of the Chris Evans anti bullying collective I'd like to invite you the the premier of the Avengers, no expenses paid of course.

Radish_legs

Take it with a grain of salt. This is second hand information related to one woman's experience on one team. However the scene is so small that a couple of bad apples could have a disproportionate impact. If you have a few male bad apples they get swallowed up by the group, literally.

Heathpack 

I figured it was something like that. So maybe take care before repeating the info and extrapolating it to women's racing in general? It does not help.

Maybe it's the TT scene or maybe is a SoCal thing or maybe I'm just generally not too sensitive because I don't care tremendously what other people think of me so long as their actions don't obstruct what I want to do- but so far I've had universally positive experiences racing, as far as other racers go (both male & female). Everyone has been nice, approachable, helpful. No complaints, and none of the stereotypes my non-racing friends believe hold up IRL.

It makes me sad that bike racing seems to be a dying thing because I think it has a lot going for it as a sport. There's a lot screwed up about it too, but mostly it's a better thing than people outside it think it is.

furiousferret

We lost San Luis Rey RR, and SCNCA TT Champs; technically we have no state champs atm. Although it looks like another promoter is going to pick up the TT Champs.

gsteinb

....

topflightpro

I don't know how comfortable you should be. I've mentioned this before, but the State of Texas implemented PED testing for high school athletes several years ago. And they're not all just football players.

Yeah, you basically did say that. And as HP pointed out, if more masters are being tested, then there will be more positive results. We don't know who is being tested. If we only tested U23 Cat1s, would we be able to conclude they get popped more?

I'm not going to judge the harassment claims. But I do believe most of her comments about USAC and USOC and their level of knowledge regarding her doping, and that of others.

Doge

I can see that was not so clear. My post #2153 is about a stat, that I provided data to, and there were several posts that followed talking about it.

Post #2174 I am again discussing the stats. I give an reason younger are not in the USA testing pool by being in Europe. That would help explain the stat of not being caught in the USA even if still doping.
I clarified it with the words I replaced it with in brackets [] - what I actually posted was quoted 2 post above.


USAC posts it has different testing rates by group https://www.usacycling.org/resources/race-clean The group at the bottom of the pyramid is tested the least - and caught the most.

Possible Reasons for the USA masters being caught more...
-Junior races are not tested at all based on observation - that is why we see nothing on them.
-Ages 19-30 Elites are very often not in the USA (my post point)
-Domestic Elites are very often older, so the stat becomes a masters one.
-Testing rate of International racers is high, but there are few here for the USA testing pool. I linked pages back the testing records, each racer is tested several times. These racers know they will be tested. They know how to not register, either by controlling doses, or not doping - or having Russia take care of it (Icarus movie reference).
-Amateur masters - Those 30+ are the biggest pool of racers, tested the least, they are still caught the most.

Doge

The "neo-pros" are tested heavily. Juniors are tested when racing UCI races (Europe). USA does not have any junior UCI races. I don't know where junior USA track racers are tested in the USA. I have never seen it in a road race. If a junior was near the top in a USA pro race, that may be different, but pure junior racing isn't tested. Parents OK the testing (and it is parents or guardian signing every race), it could be done, just that it isn't.

If only tested U23s Cat 1s - they would be the only caught, if at all, and in the last two year, not at all, would be my guess. Just because they are tested now and none have been caught in the last two years.

But if what USAC RaceClean program says about the pyramid is correct, U23s are tested plenty. U23 pros get home visits by USADA agents mid-week if they are good. I saw U23 testing at nats. Testing is heavier for the winners than the pack. I expect the tested U23s tend not to be Cat 1.

mattm

literally??

Radish_legs

Yes. Eaten and pooped out.

gsteinb

Metaphorically speaking, you’re raping the English language.

Radish_legs

cat 5 grammar.

Ygduf

ignorant ≠ despised

Homebrew01

What happens in P & R stays in P & R