Interesting finds around the web
#1226
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The problem is not simply getting the reach shorter for aerobars or longer for drop bars. The problem is that when you change the reach (for whatever bars) you change the handling of the bike because you are not changing the top tube length. Therefore you are simply adjusting where your bars are in relation to the front axle.
In my case, the 85mm stem I'm using for pursuit position is only 5mm shorter than what I have on my TT bike, and well within the normal range of what's commonly used on TT bikes (in fact the stem is purpose-made for use with TT bar setup). My elbows are slightly further behind the front axle on the pursuit bike compared to my TT bike; but that's because my TT bike is actually a little too short and I have the pads shoved all the way forward on that bike. My next TT bike will have a longer top tube.
As far as the mass start setup, I'm running a 110mm stem which is 10mm shorter than what I use on the road but again, well within the normal range for a drop handlebar setup. If I were to buy a track bike solely for mass start I would get something with a taller top tube so I could use a flipped stem, but that's just a cosmetic issue.
I should also mention I have two seatpost/saddle setups, with the saddle being further forward and slightly higher for pursuit. Using the same saddle setup for both wouldn't work for me.
#1227
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It would be interesting to figure out where that "sweet spot" for neutral handling is with aerobars. We have the usual guidelines like "elbows under the ears"... but what about the weight distribution? Where should the pads be in relation to the axle/steering column? My guess would be somewhere in between, but does anyone know this for sure? I haven't had aerobars on my bike for almost 15 years now, so I can't recall exactly how it related, nor do I have them around to check.
Too far forward also doesn't feel stable because weight balance is too far forward. On my TT bike the front of the pads are just about even with the front axle. The pads are fairly long, but even so they're a bit farther forward than I'd like, descending speeds can get pretty scary (and I'm not talking major mountain descents, but at 35-40mph).
#1228
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Generally speaking narrower is faster from an aerodynamics standpoint. Bringing the elbows in too far can actually be counter-productive, particularly for riders who are wider through the hips and shoulders. But for most people, bringing them in narrow enough so that the arms line up in front in the thighs will be fastest.
I've noticed more riders with wide elbows on the track. I think it must be a stability issue, where they're just not comfortable through the turns with a narrower position (getting the elbows narrow does make the bike handling worse).
#1229
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It's probably tested as most speed (net effect of available power and aerodynamics) for her. Wind tunnel testing isn't that expensive - IIRC there's one in San Diego that's well within range of what a small group of masters could rent for the day, and Sarah has had enough support to be able to do some testing. The best aerodynamics also aren't necessarily obvious or intuitive for complicated shapes like the moving body of a rider on a bike.
#1230
Blast from the Past
Carlton, more than just reach to Pads the Road TT geometries are adapting to a foreword seat position. The resulting common feature in TT Geo is a long front center. On the TT bike I'm not a whole lot more "over" the front wheel even with a seat 30mm foreword from my road position. A concern that I have with my Pursuit setup is that I'm using a standard Track frame but using my TT seat position. Not sure how that will impact stability. I wonder if some of the "wide elbows" for control is a result of too much weight on the front wheel as riders move up to open their hip angle, on bikes that aren't really built for it?
Thoughts and prayers go out this evening to the people of Houston.
#1231
aka mattio
Yeah, I've seen wide elbows lately, and I doubt it's due to stability. We're talking about world-class riders, chasing seconds, with aerodynamic testing cheaper than its ever been. I'm with bitingduck - it's probably the Most Speed position.
Eyeball aerodynamics just doesn't work. Or, it works - but only to a point and that point comes pretty fast. Aerodynamics can be counterintuitive, like bitingduck says.
Plus, some really weird positions work really well. I remember seeing shots of Evie Stevens before her hour record and thinking that her position looked very antiquated, but her coach says that it was one of the most aerodynamic positions he'd ever worked with.
And I was watching some Bobridge pursuits recently - he had a very heads-up position, but it was aerodynamic enough for him to set the IP world record.
Eyeball aerodynamics just doesn't work. Or, it works - but only to a point and that point comes pretty fast. Aerodynamics can be counterintuitive, like bitingduck says.
Plus, some really weird positions work really well. I remember seeing shots of Evie Stevens before her hour record and thinking that her position looked very antiquated, but her coach says that it was one of the most aerodynamic positions he'd ever worked with.
And I was watching some Bobridge pursuits recently - he had a very heads-up position, but it was aerodynamic enough for him to set the IP world record.
#1232
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If you look at the guys winning WorldTour TT's and Ironman bike legs, you see a lot of commonality in their positions, and most of them have pretty narrow elbows (at least compared to Hammer's position). There's a reason for that. I'm also willing to bet those guys have spent a lot more time in the wind tunnel than Hammer has (it's still not exactly cheap these days at a couple hundred bucks and hour, plus travel expenses if you're not local).
#1233
aka mattio
You're right that World Tour pros have probably spent more WT time than Hammer, but worth noting that road TTs and Ironman are very different events than an IP or TP. The only thing they have in common (literally) is aerobars and a stopwatch.
Hammer's arms aren't wider than her thighs. Her hips are wider than her shoulders, and her arms don't go *out* from her shoulders. They're in line
As bitingduck pointed out, most aerodynamic doesn't necessarily mean fastest. Most Speed might sacrifice some aerodynamics for power, and the shorter the TT the more important maintaining the utmost power output is.
Of course, we could be talking in circles, or saying the same thing from opposite directions. Maybe it's for stability in turns - and maybe that's where they get power from.
Hammer's arms aren't wider than her thighs. Her hips are wider than her shoulders, and her arms don't go *out* from her shoulders. They're in line
As bitingduck pointed out, most aerodynamic doesn't necessarily mean fastest. Most Speed might sacrifice some aerodynamics for power, and the shorter the TT the more important maintaining the utmost power output is.
Of course, we could be talking in circles, or saying the same thing from opposite directions. Maybe it's for stability in turns - and maybe that's where they get power from.
#1234
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(Preface: Sara Hammer's first kilo split is faster than I've ever ridden a kilo.)
When I was doing full-speed kilos and flying laps in aerobars, riding at 60kph/37mph is a lot easier when your arms are wider.
I adopted a style similar to Hoy with the elbows (relatively) wide but the forearms narrow. Sorta makes an aerohead shape. That was an unintended result. It was simply most stable.
Notice the placement of his pads against the forearms, closer to the wrists than the elbows.
I tried the narrow position and it felt too delicate and I felt like I spent more mental energy wrangling the bike than I did focusing on what I needed to focus on.
Hammer (or Hoy) wouldn't have these problems as they've done these a million times. But, my guess would be either stability when laying down lots of power and/or breathing.
When I was doing full-speed kilos and flying laps in aerobars, riding at 60kph/37mph is a lot easier when your arms are wider.
I adopted a style similar to Hoy with the elbows (relatively) wide but the forearms narrow. Sorta makes an aerohead shape. That was an unintended result. It was simply most stable.
Notice the placement of his pads against the forearms, closer to the wrists than the elbows.
I tried the narrow position and it felt too delicate and I felt like I spent more mental energy wrangling the bike than I did focusing on what I needed to focus on.
Hammer (or Hoy) wouldn't have these problems as they've done these a million times. But, my guess would be either stability when laying down lots of power and/or breathing.
#1235
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Carbon fibre arm rests https://www.shopforwatts.co.uk/colle...aero-arm-rests
#1236
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If you look at the guys winning WorldTour TT's and Ironman bike legs, you see a lot of commonality in their positions, and most of them have pretty narrow elbows (at least compared to Hammer's position). There's a reason for that. I'm also willing to bet those guys have spent a lot more time in the wind tunnel than Hammer has (it's still not exactly cheap these days at a couple hundred bucks and hour, plus travel expenses if you're not local).
Some time ago (~5 years maybe?) Sarah and Mini-Phinney were both at elite track nats the same year. Phinney was the only male rider whose 3K split in the IP was faster than Sarah's 3K. If she'd ridden the 4K, she'd have probably gotten silver behind him.
#1237
Blast from the Past
The last pic I saw posted showed water up to the top of the track on the start/finish line.
#1239
Senior Member
Looks like an indenti-kit rip off of the kask bambino, and apparently world champ/olympic level racers are using them:
https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/ZXKRON...3-visor-bundle
Anyone have any experience or knowledge to impart?
https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/ZXKRON...3-visor-bundle
Anyone have any experience or knowledge to impart?
Last edited by ruudlaff; 09-06-17 at 06:41 AM.
#1240
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Looks like an indenti-kit rip off of the kask bambino, and apparently world champ/olympic level racers are using them:
https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/ZXKRON...3-visor-bundle
Anyone have any experience or knowledge to impart?
https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/ZXKRON...3-visor-bundle
Anyone have any experience or knowledge to impart?
Cycling helmets simply should not cost $300 or more. Period.
A skate helmet goes for about $50USD and is rated to survive 3 crashes. Most cycling helmets are only rated to survive 1 crash. The skate helmets weigh about the same as a Casco warp.
Caveat Emptor:
The helmet has to be approved for use in USA Cycling and/or UCI events.
This is why some popular European helmets aren't offered in the US, it's because they haven't applied for CPSC certification.
So, for a USA Cycling ONLY event, the helmet must be CPSC approved. For a USA Cycling event held under UCI Rules (like Elite/Jr/Masters Nationals), then EU helmet rules apply.
So, before you buy with intention to use it at a big event, it may be worth an email to see if it has the proper certifications. If it does, I'll probably get one.
#1243
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Actually Catlike Helmets were imported and distributed by Lambert-Hawley until this year for Canada/USA.
#1244
Senior Member
I assume that you do not live in the USA.
Many USA cyclists buy items from the UK because prices excludes sales-tax/VAT and often includes free shipping and convenient delivery time.
Of course I support my local bike shop for most items I purchase.
Many USA cyclists buy items from the UK because prices excludes sales-tax/VAT and often includes free shipping and convenient delivery time.
Of course I support my local bike shop for most items I purchase.
#1245
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Rumor had it at the time that even though some people could get them, they were not legal for use at USA Cycling events that were not UCI events (e.g. State Championships or Regionals are not OK but Nationals are OK)
The same went for Casco (I had a Casco at the time).
#1247
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BTW, the new Kask Mistral looks like a nice helmet, Aero Helmets
#1248
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BTW, the new Kask Mistral looks like a nice helmet, Aero Helmets